Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Buzz is correct here. It's not like a team's expenses to unload and race are less on nights when the purse in less. A team is still going through tires and getting one race closer to an engine rebuild.

i am not trying to argue with you cubic but this is from the ASCS web site.

"The increased volume of race dates is largely a result of a revised purse structure that now finds single-night weekend events and the final night of two-night shows at $4,000 to win and $400 to start."

teams will also get $500 in tow money per night. i don't know if that means $500 per night for multiple night events at the same track or just $500 for that whole event. i also don't know if that is any different than what they were getting last year.

http://www.ascsracing.com/news/?i=9882

to indy and beyond!!

hey single, watch out. we are in agreement on something for twice in one week!

i do not know if i am correct. i just have my opinion on things. i have no complaints with ASCS and i think they have some great shows. i just question the logic that this move will help the teams.

i just think someone did some mighty fast talking here.

to indy and beyond!!

I understand where you're coming from.

Take a look at it this way.

No mid-week races = no tow $$ for mid-week race.

Let's say expenses are the $1000 per night of racing, tow $$ is $700, make the show you cover your expenses.

Now, let's say you normally drive all the way back to the shop between weekends instead. Figure $1 per mile for fuel to get back to the shop and then to the next track. If you're a KKR car, you travel 450 miles back to the shop after running Williams Grove = $450 in FUEL only, not counting wear and tear on the Truck and Trailer, then turn around and head to Eldora for the following weekend = another 450 miles = $450 for FUEL only. then get $700 tow $$ and run 24th and get $700 purse $$ -- loss of $500 because of all fuel you put in the truck.

Scenario #2 - You race WG and head to Western PA or another POSSE track for a Wednesday Night show - 100 miles on the rig = $100 in FUEL, but you get $700 tow $$ and then race that night and run 24th and take another $500 = $1100 total after Fuel expense you end up $100 ahead in the bank account, before heading to Eldora (450 Miles), show up, get $700 tow $$ and then race and finish 24th ($700) = $50 in the hole (for the WEEK) by figuring the $1000 per night racing expenses you came up with.

I realize you think that they have hotel expenses that they now have to pay, but I highly doubt that MOST teams will stay somewhere SUPER NICE (if they stay in a hotel at all). Some of the Low-Buck teams following the tour stay in their haulers now on multi-day shows. Only teams I can see mid-week shows really hurting are unltra low-budget guys like Bill Rose that try to work a regular job and follow the tour (He HAS to go home and work in order to make $$ so he can make it to the track the next weekend).

It obviously makes financial sense to the teams, as they've been the ones wanting the mid-week shows for the last 3-4 years now.

I understand where you're coming from, and looking past the fact that it cost more to live on the road(even if you're eating PB&J out of the $150,000 toterhome and washing your clothes in a rest area sink), and wondering about the wonder of all wonders that one National team already thinks they are going to profit 15K on the tow money alone ??????? Lets just assume for a moment that this new payroll.schedule system WILL be better for the travelers and the guy finishing in the top 3 of Nat points WILL make more than the 30 K he made under the 2011 purse structure (true story)............And even IF the guy in the top 3 in points makes an extra 15k with the subsidy/tow money and even IF the same guy doubles his earnings in 2012 off of a purse that is structured 20-30% lower(or more if hes above or below the mid-range finish), he still makes what? 75K to run 65 or so races?

What about the ASCS headed/Emmett tire'd teams that make up the rest of an ASCS show beyond the 6 or 7 or MAYBE 10 guys that will be traveling and that won't be getting the $500/night subsidy? These same guys that would have a home schedule exactly the same without having to subsidize 6 or 7 or maybe 10 guys for a few(or more) nights a year.

My point - even IF this program works out, everyone beyond the 6 or 7 or maybe 10 travelers is going to take it up the ass. Why is that OK?

Fact - anyone selling this as a way for a team to make more money is high, wanting to get high, selling a high to someone who needs a high, or just plain has high hopes. I hope it succeeds. I am the king of high hopes. Just ask my wife. She'll tell you how stupid high hopes are.

Can't wait for my favorite sprintcar series to get rolling. JJR and all of their disciples are going to celebrate in 2012! :)

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

Vande is correct... if you a full-time racer and crew, you have to be racing to make money. I think most of the top ten in these series race for a living.

The issue that most of you are forgetting is that a race team has fixed expenses. Hauler, crew, shop, etc along with expenses like motors, chassis, tires, shocks that also cost money when you use them. The key, if you don't race you reduce costs on things like chassis, tires, shocks, etc but your fixed expenses still remain.

Now, if you can go to an area and race not twice but say four times, you just leveraged your overall fuel bill for the trip over four races instead of two. Your fixed expenses also. Yes, you have increased expenses to race in tires and other items but if you are losing such big money as you say... if it is 22 races or 55 races you are going to be out of business regardless.

If your a full-time racer... this schedule makes sense as long as they do it to maximize your travel.

Rich Olson

Rich Olson
FANS Fund - Founder
www.FANSFund.com

I agree 100% with the last line in your comment.

Ted Hartman

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

i can see the reasoning with some of the things people have said regarding possibly compressing some costs. i just don't know if things will work out that way in reality. i am not saying there is no possibility in it, i just wonder if it will work out that way.

no matter what, teams are going to have an average cost over the course of a year that it costs to run per event. to just maintain their cost vs. income average per event they are going to have to be able to reduce their operating costs around 30% per show. no matter what. can teams cut their average costs per show by that much? yes they are getting more tow money, but they are running more. you can figure some costs by just figuring laps on the motor. the more laps the more costs. you are still getting the same tow money per show, but you are getting 30% less purse money. now all this would be a no brainer if the purse money was staying the same.

even if you are a driver just showing up at the track i question if this system will benefit you. if you are just showing up, you usually are paying your own expenses. can you cut your per event expenses by the 30% reduction you are going to be getting per show in pay?

i guess we will all just have to see what the teams say about this (and hope they are honest) at the end of the year.

i have been involved with someone who has ran a team at the national level and i can tell you that no matter what you do, saving money or cutting expenses is not something that is done with much success when you are talking race cars.

to indy and beyond!!

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

With this theory, if the purse had remained the same then you would still have your 150% increase in costs with 0% increase in purse. The theory is flawed.

You also need to take into account the number of races the teams filled in their schedule, and for most it was a lot, that paid less than the National purse. For most teams, at the additional 33 races on the schedule, they will be racing for considerably more than they did last year.

You guys are missing (1) point. (racerguy6n, sorry but I was typing this as you posted, but we're talking the same language)

The National teams ran something like (25) National shows last year. How many races did they race that paid $1500 to win and $250 to start? I know that a number of them ran with us, (ASCS Midwest region), quite a few shows and they paid anywhere from $1500, $2000 or $3000 to win. These shows also paid anywhere from $250 to start to $400 to start. Now they will be replacing these shows with the "new" ASCS payout that is better than the majority of the regional races or even the non-sanctioned 360 shows that they had to race in last year just to stay busy.

If Jason Johnson or Shane Stewart ran, let's say, (35) or (40) races in 2011 that paid less than the new ASCS National purse, and replacing them with the new ASCS National events and purse, my money says they're going in the right direction.

You can't just compare the (25) or so National events last year with the (55) or so National shows this year, you have to figure in all the smaller purse shows that these teams raced in last year.

Take a look at our ASCS Midwest Regional race winners from last season: (I did not include the co-sanctioned events with the National Tour)

I-80 - Seth Bergman

I-80 - Brian Brown

I-80 - Brian Brown

McCool - Danny Lasoski

US36 - Wayne Johnson

McCool - Chad Humston

I-80 - Brian Brown

Jackson - Shane Stewart

Hartford - Wayne Johnson

US36 - Brad Loyet

Denison - Ryan Anderson

US36 - Jack Dover

McCool - Gregg Bakker

Eagle - Jason Johnson

I-80 - Jason Johnson

We had anywhere from (4) to (6) ASCS National drivers run about 1/2 of our 2011 schedule. All of these races paid less than the new National purse with the exception of the Eagle race which paid Jason Johnson $5000 to win.

With the expansion of the ASCS National Tour, we will probably see a lot less of these National teams in 2012 at our regional events.

Hope this sheds some light on why the revised purse structure was put in place by ASCS...CZ

Z-man - that is a great theory, and I can appreciate the positive outlook you have on the subject. And it will be nice for some of those regions that have been cherry picked by professional teams who subsidized their career without thought for their own personal value if your theory holds true.

But - with the expansion of the ASCS National Tour, we will see MORE of these National teams at our regional events. A few years ago the main staple of our short 20-some race season was used to entice the ASCS Nat series out here. For four years it has been a point of contention for all but a few teams, along with some fans and a few others who have not one bit of sense in understanding why they have no more local cars. Times are tough for some, and I get that. What I don't get is why in 2012, now a full 1/3 of our schedule are National shows, with the potential(if the national travelers decide to increase their own schedule on our speedweek) for it to be 50%.

You take care of your locals first, that is my belief, and seems to fit your theory. But that has not happened in the Northwest since ASCS came to town, and 2012 looks to be even worse.

I'm glad you see the good in this. Sorry, but for the Northwest, it's going to be a good year to just be a fan. Can't wait to see JJR and his disciples punish the field. :)

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

you completely missed the idea of my theory. if the price of the per race purse stays the same you are still getting the same per event no matter how many events you run. but in this case the per race purse goes DOWN. yes you can make more overall money, but your overall expenses have the potential to increase disproportional to the increase in any overall money you make.

if the purse was staying the same and the ASCS was adding more races, no one would be having this conversation. the added yearly expenses would theoretically stay in current proportion to the money you could earn during the year.

everyone else understands what i was talking about, so i am not really bothered if you don't get it.

at least with the outlaws it seems they are only reducing the purse on the mid week shows.

as some people have said, some of the teams and drivers in ASCS have been asking for more races and mid week shows. i just don't think they were asking for them at the expense of close to 30% of their purse for every event.

as i said it seems to me for ASCS teams to even have a chance at averaging the same amount of money per event on a cost vs. income level they will have to find a way to cut their average per event expenses by around 30%. to me there just doesn't seem to be any way around that. it may be possible to save enough on fuel and travel expenses to offset the reduction in purse, but then you get into a situation where you may be running all those other races to end up making just the same as you did running less.

i hope to hell the teams can find a way to make this work. one thing i haven't heard is if the ticket prices or sanction fees will be going down.

to indy and beyond!!

i guess if you are a national team with a sponsor helping to pay your bills you can subsidize your income a little by running some non national shows. the thing is, if it is costing you money, meaning you are paying more to run the show than you are making, it doesn't make sense.

we have to remember there are still some teams out there who have the sponsor money to run where ever they want for what ever the purse is and not worry. i am not worried about these teams making it. i am worried about the teams who are having to get by mostly on the money they can earn from the purse.

i am open to the idea i could be missing something that i just can't get my head around.

the other thing is that since there are more events and overall cost will go up, teams will have to be able to convince their sponsors to give them a bigger budget to run the season. if they can't do that, then even the bigger teams may find they aren't making ends meet. if you are an ASCS national team and have had a deal for a certain amount with a sponsor per event based on a certain amount of events, now you have to go to your sponsor and ask if they can increase their sponsorship by 150%. good luck.

to indy and beyond!!

well, like i have said for some time now... 1. the woo is dead and way beyond their glory days and 2. who cares?

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

BLUTEAM,

I understand 100% of what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. And nowhere did I say I see the good or bad in this. I was simply stating the reasons that were given to me by the National teams that I talked with for their agreement in reducing the purse. Whether they are right or wrong, I guess we'll see at seasons end.

The biggest concern we have here in the Midwest is the fact that the weekly tracks that have been running 360's have seen a steady decline in their car counts over the last couple of years. A few are seriously looking at the Racesaver 305 rules or some sort of sealed 360 engine program. And if that happens, they would become instant spectators, not participants, at our regional events.

This is going to be an interesting race season to say the least. Best of luck to you all in the Northwest and maybe some day we can venture out your way...CZ

Now that the WoO is down to just 7 cars now Meyers is pulling out,wonder what will happen to the end of year point money from 8th to 12th,my guess is one of the WoO big wigs will have fat pockets at the end of the year! just sayin!

Thanks.

I just can't find the logic in being told the purse needed to be lower so the track operators would book more shows, and then being told the drivers will make more money from the purse and it will be good and better for those same track operators then if they had stayed with a regional or local show.

LOL! it's not the first time I've been confused! I'm even confused reading what I'm trying to say!!!!

I hope it all works out too. Can't wait for it all to get started. :)

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

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