Forum: Minnesota Dirt Track Racing Forum (go)
Moderators: StanM

I don't see what Cedar Lake getting backing a limited 360 program on the eastern side of the Twin Cities Metro has much to do with Jackson, South Dakota or Iowa. From what I hear the rules will be structured so that cars from those areas could come up here and race but how many are going to do that? Whenever there has been a 360 race at Cedar we haven't seen that many make the trip in the past so what's different about this?

I think what people down in those areas don't get is that Cedar Lake is just 45 minutes from 3 million people. On a weekly basis they have full fields of Late Models, Modifieds, Super Stocks and Midwest Modifieds. There are quite a few drivers in all those divisions that do most if not all of their racing within 50 miles of home. If they make the commitment and offer a class where a guy doesn't need a $30,000 360 to compete it's going to generate interest and hopefully grow.

I'm all for this deal because it's 32 miles from home and I love Sprint Cars. It doesn't have to be 410's or even full up 360's to make me happy because it's going to be a support class. Late Models will still take top billing week in and week out. If this works in the long term we'll have Sprint Car racing up here on a more regular basis. If it doesn't work they tried. The way I look at it right now we've got Late Models, Mods, Supers, Midwest Mods and Street Stocks. The Street Stocks are a dying class because so many have switched to Midwest Mods so the fields have been 12-16-18 per week. The people behind this from what I have heard are looking at it realistically. They're not expecting 40 or 50 cars, if they can draw 20 on a regular basis they'll be happy, 30 and they'll be real happy. Arlington is doing this with their IMCA deal on the other side of Minneapolis, why shouldn't a track that runs a $50,000 to win unsanctioned Late Model race be able to start up a limited Sprint deal?

When Chuck and Brian tried to start up the MSS they were butting heads with Wissota and didn't have much in the way of tracks willing to back the deal. At that time Wissota was still sanctioning a 360 division so for their tracks to book the MSS would have been a conflict of interest. As a matter of fact there was pressure being exerted on member tracks by the big W to not book MSS shows. Now it's a lot different. There is a track willing to back this deal and a couple others not too far from here might come on board if this deal takes off.

We're no different than any of you folks down by Jackson, Rock Rapids, Husets, and Grand Forks to name a few Sprint areas. Going to Jackson for example involves eight hours round trip and a motel. We can run out to Cedar Lake late in the afternoon whent he yard work is done. Those other places are your local racing, Cedar Lake, Princeton and Kopellah by way of example are no more than an hour for many of us. How many of you would drive six hours round trip and pay $100 for a motel to watch a weekly show? You'll see us northerners at your special events but not many can afford $200+ every Saturday night and all that driving time.

Stan Meissner

I guess it's time for me to chime in. I am a car owner of a 305 (Midwest rules) sprint. I too would not be able to afford a competetive 360 motor to race ASCS or at Jackson. There seems to be an interest in 305 cars. The problem seems to be that Jackson is just too big of a track to get competetive racing with the two barrel class. The rumored change to the Midwest rules is a good move. The two barrel class is dying and I would applaud Jon for at least making an effort to keep another sprint car class going at Jackson. It would make for more competetive racing in the 305 class and, over time, would likely grow in car counts.

Additionally, it would help the 305 class if another track or two in the area could pick them up. Perhaps Worthington, Rock Rapids, Husets or Hartford. The smaller tracks don't know what a good show Midwest 305's can put on. We have raced our 305 at Husets and Hartford in the 360 class several times this year with reasonable success. We have finished as high as 4th in a twenty car field. We have won a heat race at Husets and have over 5 top ten finishes in 8 races at Hartford, Husets and Jackson. So, you see, 305 racing can be fun, inexpensive and competetive.

And, Push Rod, I don't disagree with you that the Jackson two barrel rules are more economical dollar wise than the Midwest rules. I will, however, state that the two barrel races have become a boring, single file race in a dying class. The cost to upgrade your two barrel is not that much more. My motor, in fact, was a Jackson two barrel motor to begin with. The additional purse dollars that should be available in the upgraded 305 class should also appeal to anyone wanting to run a competetive 305. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim Schatz

I think part of the problem here is that peope are wondering where all the cars are going to come from. Well, like Chuck and Stan have mentioned there appears to be quite a bit of interest from racers not currently involved in sprint car racing but whom are racing in other classes. And the cars that DO exist in the Twin Cities area don't really have an opportunity to run their cars very often without traveling several hours to do so. I know travel and motor expnese are issues for most racers and will apparantly be addressed with this new series. Yes, some of the rules will apparantly be different from what are already out there but what is out there has not worked at a local level here in the cities. Seems to work for the MSA over in eastern Wisconsin so maybe it can work over here.

If it is a "home track" class, it doesn't really matter what the rules are. It would be hard to have a travelling series if all the "home tracks" were different.

Crate engines, bolt on injection, mag, and seal them. Add some hard tires as well. Period the end.....

Pitnotes, we are both passionate about our sport. We are not trying to make a unique set of rules, we are just trying to make it more affordable to get into sprintcar racing, you will still be able to run a ASCS motor with us, but as someone wrote above, you will need restrictors, an easy way to change a motor to run at Cedar Lake and easy way to police how much air is going into that motor.

You can still run this setup at Arlington if you want. As for the car, it is the same car that everyone else is running now. Tires have been talked about, no decision on that has been made on those. Plus, the bigger teams will have a place to sell their older cars. All we are trying to do, is make it easier to get a car out there. ASCS is very expensive to race/promote. Ask Brian about that. He canceled a race at his track that he promoted at. And I have talked to promoters that think ASCS is too expensive when we can get the same cars as we get now with no sanction fee. Plus what has ASCS or IMCA done to get more racing around or north of the cities. We have people inerested in this, and we are not looking for so many cars that we have to have a b-main. I don't have any of the answers, but I do know that I have tried to better sprintcar racing around here before. Also many teams have ask for me to bring the MSS back, been there done that!!! And now the people that are working on this deal are going forward with thier plans with or without me. I'm just there to help with what ever it is we have to work with. I do know that Ron will be looking for people to help with these shows, so anyone that knows how to run a series can step up to the plate and do their part.

Save your breath Chuck. He's just another of Emmett Hahn's lackeys.

The only benefit of the ASCS Cylinder Head is to Emmett's Wallet.

I know what you mean.

OK, I'm taking off my ASCS hat here, and simply asking a question that I think would interest car owners and drivers looking to get into this division. Keep in mind that we haven't seen any official rules yet, just simply going by what a few people, who are in the know, are posting.

Chuck P. wrote:

"...we are just trying to make it more affordable to get into sprintcar racing, you will still be able to run a ASCS motor with us, but as someone wrote above, you will need restrictors..."

So if Jason Johnson, or Wayne Johnson would happen to venture up your way, all they would have to do to run with you guys is throw in a set of whatever size restrictors that your rules would require? How does that make your rules any more economical to run then what is out there now?

I'm not bashing this idea, I'm not bashing anybody, just simply asking a question that I think is relevant to this situation...CZ

Did any of you see what the tac on the 94 car read at Jackson? Try 9000-9400 rpms. Holy crap! One of his crew guys said it was a $40,000 engine. Bill W said that Wayne drove by Jason Johnson like he was tied to a gate post at the 360 Nat's. Eventually that stuff will trickle down to the local tracks and the cost will go up if you want to be competetive. Heck, just look at the last 10 years at Jackson.

That being said, fine, bring your $40,000 piece to CLS and put the 1 7/8(or whatever it is) restrictors in and race. The point is that you probably don't have the engine advantage that you are used to. The guy with a $10,000-$12,000(or even less) has a better shot at being competetive. Not only that, but it will cost less to race and might even make for better(closer) racing. I applaude the effort and wish more tracks would follow suit. The ASCS game with engine costs and open LR tires is a very expensive deal, I think....

The midwest mod rules seemed to gain a ton of drivers who were either not racing modifieds, or not competitive in the mods and the class seems fairly strong. What is the difference? If ASCS is the god of rules and all the owners and drivers want to run those rules and a common rule would bring cars from the entire midwest then it would be fair to say that the 360 show under ASCS rules would bring in so many cars that they have to run an E feature. Not going to happen. I agree that travellers would want a set of rules they could run everywhere, but, we shouldn't take away the fact that most IMCA drivers and owners seem happy with their rules. They don't want to travel. If you want to run with them, build and IMCA car. If 20 guys say run ASCS rules weekly at Cedar Lake and we will be there every weekend, then do it. If one guy says run ASCS rules and I'll be there every week and 19 say they would run or build a car if the motor package was more affordable, then........... If you run ASCS rules, thats all you get. If you allow a sleeved ASCS to compete with your local rules, then you get your local following plus your ASCS. Nowdays, anyone who can afford to put gas in the hauler and travel can afford some sleeves and a tire. However, the rules already sound like I wouldn't be able to swing it; so my words are worthless. lol

With all due respect my take on ASCS since they've been up here amounts to a few races at Brainerd. One of them was an ASCS National Tour date so I took time off work to drive up there (2 1/2 hours) and the whole next day because I typically don't get home from up there until 3am. There were only something like 18 cars so as far as burning vacation goes it was a bust. Pretty much every other ASCS race I have attended up this way has been the same 20-25 cars I would have seen if it had been unsanctioned. There are no ASCS races at any of the tracks I go to on a regular basis around the Cities and western Wisconsin.

A few races per year at Brainerd isn't going to convince these kids that are racing every weekend to get into Sprint Cars. Potential drivers want to race often enough to make it worth while to field a car but don't won't tow to South Dakota or Nebraska or even Brainerd to do it.

I look at this as a deal that could generate interest in Sprints and potentially send some future drivers to the ASCS. All these drivers started out running at a local track somewhere. Right now we don't have that up here and sad to say we're running of opportunities to get something going. We'd all like B, C, and D Mains every weekend but today's curfews and economics won't allow it. The top class up here is probably always going to be Late Models. Last night there were 45 signed in at a track a half hour from home with WDRL points leader John Kaanta and Jimmy Mars among the drivers on hand. In addition to that there was a large field of Modifieds and Super Stocks. We'd have to come up with a h*lluva Sprint Car program overnight to even come close to that type of racing.

Again, I'm just a bystander on this deal but I'd be crazy not to like the idea of 18-20 Sprints running a few Heats and a Feature at a track that didn't take $100 of gas and Motel expenses to get to.

Stan Meissner

Just an FYI on the restrictor and the advantage/disadvantage on engines. I had one of my engines dynoed with 2 3/16 stacks (ASCS legal size), and 1 7/8 restrictors....that was the only change between dyno pulls and it was 10 horsepower, and 3 ft. lbs of torque less with 1 7/8 restrictors. If the rules are opened up like that someone will spend the money, and everyone else will bitch. They'll either have to spend the money to keep up, or you're gonna lose the car. I've done this long enough to know that money makes you go faster (not that talent and hard work don't), it doesn't matter what you race.....you wanna run up front consistantly....you've gotta be one of the bigger spenders. Basically what I'm saying is one of these guys is going to build an $8,000 engine because that's what he can afford, call himself a sprint car driver and race against someone who has a $25,000 - $35,000 ASCS engine (you can buy a REALLY good used one for about $16,000), and get his ass handed to him every week. That's just the way it is. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade....I'm just telling it like I see it. BTW, I'm Jason Johnson, Mighty Mouse 27 car....Hope everyone gets things worked out, and more cars are around!

The way I see it, anyone in Northwestern Wisconsin who is going to have a 360 ascs or 410 sprint car has one. They race it. The only way to get "new blood" is to develop a class that attracts new cars. Don't know the answer, but what would the rules need to read so that you would put together a car?

Cream always rises to the top. I don't see how you can have it both ways and have any ASCS car come in and run against cars with your economy engine rules and not have some advantage problems. Like Jason said, You run a ASCS engine with whatever restrictions you apply against your local limited budget engine and your local car is going to get his ass handed to him. To truly run an economy class you have to run some type of sealed engine program like what Jon is doing with his 305 class. That way each engine is speced to ensure no rules infraction and you level your playing field and maybe keep costs down. You do this and you pretty much have yourself with yet another set of rules for a specific track. You don't do this and sure as hell you will have someone spending the jingle on a high dollar motor and everyone else will be on the outside looking into victory lane. Gee, we have never seen that happen before. Money talks. He who spends the most will win the most. Good luck with whatever you do guys!! I hope it works out for the betterment of the great sport of racing. Ken Netsch

Like Stan said you live in late model, mod , stock car,country up there, a rules package isn't going to get you more local sprints , if you don't have them now , I don't think the fab shops will be too busy building new ones. I live in NW Ia. where sprints have been plentiful for years , because of multiple tracks close by this area, most locals teams cut back on travel as well here . The only way I see to build a car count for sprints up there is to make the payout enough to make it feasible to go that far... the promoters can't afford that right? Changing the rules won't get you cars up there. Car counts are suffering here to, it's only going to get worse. jmo

As far as outspending to win, that happens in everything from Pure Stocks up to and including Sprint Cup, the IRL and F1. If we were gonna' let that bother us there would be no racing anywhere.

There seems to be two opinions regarding this discussion.

Opinion #1, this sounds like a good idea, let's give it a try and see if it works.

Opinion #2, no way, this can't possibly work.

So why don't we do this. Post your name, location, home track and involvment in Sprint Car racing. Post a simple yes or no and in one brief sentence state why you said yes or no.

So I'll go first.

Stan Meissner - photographer/writer/Sprint Car fan

Forest Lake, Minnesota

Home track Cedar Lake Speedway

Yes, I support this.

Why yes? More Sprint Car racing close to home.

Stan Meissner

Jimmy Kouba - Sprint driver and former sprint team owner

Byron, MN

no home track, but raced a lot at Cedar Lake and Jackson prior to that

Yes, I support this

Why yes: A consistent place to race close to the Twin Cities will get more people in that area enthused about building a sprint car team and an afforable engine package make it possible for them to actually do it.

Well Chuck P. it looks like all the grandstander's have this thing beat before it starts. You all are so damn smart, why don't you all go sign a 10,000.00 ASCS show. Go help Chuck Zetterich get these signed around here so I don't have to invest my time. If all you dumb a------- would take the time to investigate what it takes to do this, acquire an ASCS show, you all would sing a different tune. How many proposals did you send out Chuck Z ? How many races did we get? 3 !!!! 3 damn races for a population of 2.5 million people [ roughly 100 mile radius of the Twin Cities] And you Chuck Z have worked your butt off and will continue to and I will support you. This is not to compete with ASCS but to enhance it. Giving the promotes an affordable Sprint show around the Twin Cities, and work with the cars that are here. As for the car count, wake up fools it dozen't take 25 cars to put on a race. The Kouba Memorial had 14, and what a hell of a race it was 4 lead changes. Would I like more? hell yes but the reality of our economy is, it is what is is. My advice to the spineless who won't post your names is to shut your mouths or put up the money. I would rather fail 19 times at helping sprints than listen to all this negative crap and not try. If Ron Burnhagen is willing to work at this then I willing to help, If we ALL work at time it will Succeed. if we bicker and fight amoung ourselves this to will fail.

Joe Kouba

I'm going to wait and see what is being proposed and what Cedar Lake's commitment level is before I decide.

I hope it works. We want to get back to racing. But if the promoter isn't willing to put in more of a commitment than Grove Creek did with their 305 deal, it isn't worth investing in an engine that has no other place to race.

steiny - car owner & general pain-in-the-ass.