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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead

Topic: Will the real WoO Record Keeper please stand up...
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dirtlover
February 02, 2018 at 10:50:10 AM
Joined: 07/15/2013
Posts: 331
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it is so dumb that prelims did not count



egras
February 02, 2018 at 04:23:17 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1757
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Reply to:
Posted By: MSPN on February 02 2018 at 10:43:35 AM

I sat with Doug for a while at a friends wedding years ago and we had a private conversation covering a lot of things I wouldn't really tell anyone, I'm telling you it was entertaining and fun and I have had few such conversations with many other humans to this date.  How's that for a run-on sentence, lol....



I was gonna call you bob altman for a second.................. ;)



egras
February 02, 2018 at 04:40:13 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1757
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Reply to:
Posted By: texdel on February 01 2018 at 09:41:11 AM

Counting Prelims, there is no telling how many more wins

would be listed for Kinser, Sammy, Wolfie and some others.

I know Saldana has like 10 or 11 prelims that don't count on the totals.

Its a shame they didn't count them and they have no records to go back and look at.

The only people who probably know the true win totals are the drivers themselves if they kept count...

 



Not arguing with you, but just to be fair:

I did a little digging and picked some random years to compare the number of "credited" races to the driver's win totals. (completely random)

If I count wins in the top-20 of drivers (i know there were some rouge wins outside the top-20, but this is a fair indicator), this is what I came up with:

1987--69 total wins credited in the top 20

1998--62 total wins credited

2005--59 total wins credited

2009--57 total wins credited

2013--64 total wins credited

2015--62 total wins credited

No big fluctuation before prelims counted and after.   

I know the prelim nights would have added to their win totals prior to 2007.  However, it is not like drivers after 2007 have been given twice as many races.  



Johnny Utah
February 02, 2018 at 05:21:59 PM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 558
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This message was edited on February 02, 2018 at 05:24:01 PM by Johnny Utah
Reply to:
Posted By: Speedbump on February 01 2018 at 06:06:48 PM

 For some reason I thought the reason for not counting prelim's is because several of them featured a split field with only half the cars going each night.....like the Knoxville National's or Chili Bowl.  (something that used to be more common, no?)  Is my memory rusty or is there something to that?   

Too bad that sprintcarstats.com has went dark.   The question would have been easy to answer there.      



Dave Argabright was on the Open Red podcast last summer and he had a pretty good explanation for prelim wins not counting. He said that only Ted Johnson would know for 100% certain, but he was very confident in his explanation nonetheless. In summary, he said it basically goes all the way back to the first season or so of the Outlaws. Back then the only way an Outlaw show was an Outlaw show, was if it paid $2000 to win. So when Ted would go and seek out promoters to put on an Outlaw show, he would find that promoters were interested, but because the Outlaws were a fledgling organization they were incurring a big risk. In order to offset that risk they would request a two day show but only pay $1000 to win on the first night. It was a way for the promoter to gauge interest and not potentially lose their ass if no one showed up. Buuuut, because these shows didn’t pay $2000 they wouldnt issue full points for a win and thats where it most likely all began. 

I just relocated the podcast and found it was episode 51 at about the 23 minute mark. My memory of it was pretty good.



revjimk
February 02, 2018 at 06:23:31 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3488
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on February 02 2018 at 05:21:59 PM

Dave Argabright was on the Open Red podcast last summer and he had a pretty good explanation for prelim wins not counting. He said that only Ted Johnson would know for 100% certain, but he was very confident in his explanation nonetheless. In summary, he said it basically goes all the way back to the first season or so of the Outlaws. Back then the only way an Outlaw show was an Outlaw show, was if it paid $2000 to win. So when Ted would go and seek out promoters to put on an Outlaw show, he would find that promoters were interested, but because the Outlaws were a fledgling organization they were incurring a big risk. In order to offset that risk they would request a two day show but only pay $1000 to win on the first night. It was a way for the promoter to gauge interest and not potentially lose their ass if no one showed up. Buuuut, because these shows didn’t pay $2000 they wouldnt issue full points for a win and thats where it most likely all began. 

I just relocated the podcast and found it was episode 51 at about the 23 minute mark. My memory of it was pretty good.



Thanks, Johnny Yuma!



revjimk
February 02, 2018 at 06:24:24 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3488
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Reply to:
Posted By: butchknouse14 on February 01 2018 at 08:51:04 PM

WoO Preliminary Wins 1978-2017

 1. Steve Kinser-144
 2. Sammy Swindell-117
 3. Mark Kinser-55
 4. Doug Wolfgang-37
 5. Danny Lasoski-33
 6. Dave Blaney-29
 7. Jeff Swindell-22
 8. Bobby Davis-21
 9. Jac Haudenschild-19
     Donny Schatz-19

This is the top 10 out of 108.

The only prelinary features now are the first three nights at Knoxville



Well done, thanks!



dsc1600
February 02, 2018 at 06:45:18 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2176
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Reply to:
Posted By: butchknouse14 on February 01 2018 at 08:51:04 PM

WoO Preliminary Wins 1978-2017

 1. Steve Kinser-144
 2. Sammy Swindell-117
 3. Mark Kinser-55
 4. Doug Wolfgang-37
 5. Danny Lasoski-33
 6. Dave Blaney-29
 7. Jeff Swindell-22
 8. Bobby Davis-21
 9. Jac Haudenschild-19
     Donny Schatz-19

This is the top 10 out of 108.

The only prelinary features now are the first three nights at Knoxville



If this list is remotely accurate, they should have 2 historical lists. All-time WoO winners not counting prelims and an all time list that does count them. Just for the historical information is anything. 



revjimk
February 02, 2018 at 07:14:15 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3488
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But nobody has answered original question about McMahan's disappearing wins.....



sprintfast
February 02, 2018 at 07:17:23 PM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 169
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Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on February 02 2018 at 07:14:15 PM

But nobody has answered original question about McMahan's disappearing wins.....



McMahan isn't a winner he's a Loser.



bobcat5857
February 02, 2018 at 10:02:43 PM
Joined: 09/13/2005
Posts: 9
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Reply to:
Posted By: Oppermanfan on February 01 2018 at 08:23:21 AM

I don't know what happened to McMahon but what I find amazing is Gravel already has more wins than some big names in WoO history. More than Andy Hillenburg, Jeff Swindell, Shane Stewart, Bobby Allen. I know David has had a couple really good years but these guys were around for a really long time. 



With kinser,swindell an Wolfgang all running, it was very had for anyone else to add to there win total.it was great to see those 3 race but I'm sure it hurt a lot of very good racers and owners and sponsors



budz76
MyWebsite
February 02, 2018 at 10:32:12 PM
Joined: 12/03/2005
Posts: 273
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Reply to:
Posted By: Oppermanfan on February 01 2018 at 08:23:21 AM

I don't know what happened to McMahon but what I find amazing is Gravel already has more wins than some big names in WoO history. More than Andy Hillenburg, Jeff Swindell, Shane Stewart, Bobby Allen. I know David has had a couple really good years but these guys were around for a really long time. 



Andy, Jeff and Bobby, Blaney were always racing against Steve, Sammy and Wolfe. Those top 3 guys don’t leave much room for otherS to win!

winners are judged by how great their competitors are.



blazer00
February 02, 2018 at 10:55:44 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1528
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Reply to:
Posted By: bobcat5857 on February 02 2018 at 10:02:43 PM

With kinser,swindell an Wolfgang all running, it was very had for anyone else to add to there win total.it was great to see those 3 race but I'm sure it hurt a lot of very good racers and owners and sponsors



I think just the opposite. Having witnessed those early years with the Outlaws, those three were responsible in a big way for the mass appeal and crowd sizes. They were one hell of a draw......especially that there were three in the mix rather than just two. All the teams benefited from the "Big 3" appeal.  It was that popularity that led to the thousands of t shirts that were being sold, and all the teams/drivers benefited from that with there own t's. I also think that the instant popularity led to sponsorships that a lot of teams might never have had. Wolfgang really only ran probably 5 or 6 seasons full time with the Outlaws. There were many years he was off doing his own thing for other owners, and only hit portions of the WoO schedule. So the "Big 3" were really the "Big 2" most of the time. Doug has always said he thought Steve and Sammy were the Big 2.....and he was that he was just the best of the rest. I do think that Doug's popularity with the fans was as strong as either Steve's or Sammy's. And too, Doug has always been very modest with regards to his achievements. Anyway you look at it, those three opened a lot of doors that benefited the entire series.



Anthony Corini
MyWebsite
February 03, 2018 at 01:25:50 PM
Joined: 08/14/2014
Posts: 160
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All sorts of good conversation in this thread. I'm glad to say everyone responsible for this list within the WoO have already had this conversation and a solution/answer will be coming out very soon. Expect to see information released about the Preliminary wins in the near future, in accordance with the 40th Anniversary Season. 

As for McMahan being omitted, that's a simple mistake on my end. I updated the win totals for last year and in my Word Document, it shows him there but it didn't transfer over to the backend of the website. My apologies. If you visit the page now, his total is correctly inputted. http://woosprint.com/fan-guide/history

 

Thanks for catching my mistake, 

Anthony Corini



GTigers55
February 03, 2018 at 02:30:04 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 309
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Reply to:
Posted By: Anthony Corini on February 03 2018 at 01:25:50 PM

All sorts of good conversation in this thread. I'm glad to say everyone responsible for this list within the WoO have already had this conversation and a solution/answer will be coming out very soon. Expect to see information released about the Preliminary wins in the near future, in accordance with the 40th Anniversary Season. 

As for McMahan being omitted, that's a simple mistake on my end. I updated the win totals for last year and in my Word Document, it shows him there but it didn't transfer over to the backend of the website. My apologies. If you visit the page now, his total is correctly inputted. http://woosprint.com/fan-guide/history

 

Thanks for catching my mistake, 

Anthony Corini



Thumbs up! Thanks for doing this. Intrigued to see what ya'll are doing with the Prelim night wins...



blazer00
February 03, 2018 at 04:03:46 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1528
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Reply to:
Posted By: budz76 on February 02 2018 at 10:32:12 PM

Andy, Jeff and Bobby, Blaney were always racing against Steve, Sammy and Wolfe. Those top 3 guys don’t leave much room for otherS to win!

winners are judged by how great their competitors are.



I for one agree with your statement about "winners being judged by how great their competitors are". I'll always maintain the opinion that those years had the stiffest competition from top top bottom over any era since, including current. The numbers speak for themselves. Another true measure of the competition from those years, is the number of them that are still active, and able to keep up and even win.



turn4guy
February 03, 2018 at 09:33:19 PM
Joined: 04/23/2015
Posts: 339
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That 577 at the top will NEVER be broken. 



sprintman11
February 04, 2018 at 09:41:51 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 632
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Reply to:
Posted By: turn4guy on February 03 2018 at 09:33:19 PM

That 577 at the top will NEVER be broken. 



Long Live The King!!



butchknouse14
February 09, 2018 at 02:52:43 PM
Joined: 04/26/2016
Posts: 23
Reply

This list is from back issues of National Speed Sport News

Drivers with a * either haven;t yet or never won a full points WoO feature

 1. Steve Kinser-144
 2. Sammy Swindell-117
 3. Mark Kinser-55
 4. Doug Wolfgang-37
 5. Danny Lasoski-33
 6. Dave Blaney-29
 7. Jeff Swindell-22
 8. Bobby Davis-21
 9. Jac Haudenschild-19
     Donny Schatz-19
11. Andy Hillenburg-18
     Stevie Smith-18
13. Ron Shuman-16
14. Craig Dollansky-12
15. Brad Doty-11
      Joey Saldana-11
17. Tim Shaffer-10
18. Tim Green-9
19. Brent Kaeding-7
     Johnny Herrera-7
     Shane Stewart-7
     Tim Kaeding-7
23. Bobby Allen-6
      Greg Hodnett-6
      Tyler Walker-6
      Daryn Pittman-6
      Jeff Shepard-6
28. Rick Ferkel-5
      Jimmy Sills-5
      Danny Smith-5
      Fred Rahmer-5
     Jason Meyers-5
33. Kenny Jacobs-4
      Keith Kauffman-4
     Lance Dewease-4
     Kerry Madsen-4
     Terry McCarl-4
38. Johnny Anderson-3
      Jack Hewitt-3
      Brian Brown-3
      Kyle Larson-3
     Jason Johnson-3
44. Dean Thompson-2*
      Mike Brooks-2 *
      Joe Gaerte-2
      Cris Eash-2
      Danny Wood-2
      Brad Furr-2
      P.J. Chesson-2
     Donnie Kreitz-2
     Paul McMahan-2
    Jason Solwold-2*
    Brook Tatnell-2
    Kraig Kinser-2
    David Gravel-2
57. John Stevenston-1*
Steve Perry-1*
Ed French-1*
Buster Venard-1
Rick Goudy-1
Lee James-1
Dub May-1
Nick Rescino-1
Gary Patterson-1*
Lee Osborne-1
Billy Stief-1*
Ken Schrader-1*
Tom Corbin-1*
Bobby Marshall-1*
Ronnie Daniels-1*
Rick Weld-1*
Tim Gee-1
Rick Montgomery-1*
Shane Carson-1
Chuck Gurney-1*
John Sernett-1*
Dave Bradway JR-1*
Darrell Hanestad-1
Lee Brewer-1
Jerry Richert JR-1*
Rick Hood-1
Jim Bell-1*
Chuck Miller-1
Craig Keel-1*
Tommy Estes-1*
Greg Brown-1*
Randy Hannagan-1
Steve Smith-1
Billy Pauch-1
Gary Wright-1
Randy Tiner-1*
Don Droud-1*
Manny Rockhold-1*
Dale Blaney-1
Travis Cram-1*
Mark Smith-1*
Erin Crocker-1*
Brian Paulus-1
Calivin Landis-1*
Jonathan Allard-1
Wayne Johnson-1*
Mark Dobmeier-1
Kevin Swindell-1
Justin Henderson-1*
Bryan Clauson-1*
Rico Abreu-1

I haven't been getting notices from this website on posts. If you have any questions, e-mail butchknouse@outlook.com or Facebook Butch Knouse
 



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