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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead

Topic: ALL STARS 2018
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W2Motorsports
November 07, 2017 at 02:53:41 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 61
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Posted By: railfan33 on November 07 2017 at 02:27:29 PM

Considering a full field is 24 cars, I would consider 20 to be anemic. I recognize Lincoln usually doesn’t have a full field problem, Williams Grove and Port do. Special shows are not a problem but weekly shows could be an issue.



There are not many tracks consistently pulling well over 20 cars, even Knoxville had SEVERAL nights where they were in the 20-24 range last season. Jackson regularly had nights in the low 20s and below. Lernerville, and Mercer both had very bad nights during the season well below 20 cars. The only tracks that seem to knock it out of the park weekly car counts wise in the entire country are the Ohio tracks, and River Cities, and if the concern is the strength of field then all of those tracks are relatively weak compared to a weekly field at Knoxville, or here in Central PA, especially Williams Grove.



W2Motorsports
November 07, 2017 at 02:57:46 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 61
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Posted By: railfan33 on November 07 2017 at 02:27:29 PM

Considering a full field is 24 cars, I would consider 20 to be anemic. I recognize Lincoln usually doesn’t have a full field problem, Williams Grove and Port do. Special shows are not a problem but weekly shows could be an issue.



Also, I don't think I would consider having 85% of a full field being Anemic. If that is the case then almost all of dirt racing has anemic car counts. There are not many tracks in the country that have a top division pulling much more than 20 cars unless you count IMCA Mods or UMP Mods or anything like that (I don't really consider them a TOP division, not like SLM or 410s). I understand anyone who has been around a while will think back to when they had 500 cars trying to qualify every Saturday night, but as far as I can remember 20 cars has always been significantly more than acceptable in terms of car count. I've always thought when the counts get down to 12 or less is when you are in trouble. To each their own I suppose.



Kingpin2014
MyWebsite
November 07, 2017 at 03:40:03 PM
Joined: 06/20/2017
Posts: 27
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Posted By: alum.427 on November 07 2017 at 08:28:22 AM

2017 is behind us. The Outlaws are loading up with teams to tour next year, possibly 18 to 20. I wonder were this is leaving the all stars as far as teams that are going to run the hole schedule ? You have your local guys that will jump in when they are close, but how many will follow the tour ? Is Dale Blaney coming back or staying in PA ? Remember he drives to central pa every week-end. Western pa. had 4 guys that got there feet wet and followed most of the tour but they never did very well. Are they coming back for another shot ? Or, it has been said Mercer is done unless a buyer is found. The RUSH group is starting a new crate class of sprint car. You have the 305 class, I believe that only leaves 1 track in western pa running sprint cars weekly. Lernerville. Tim Schaffer had a great year but there going to pick and choose were and when they run, which is what i think many are going to do. I think you may see Tony Stewart try to get some of that young Ca. talent to come to the mid-west. The off season may be interesting to say the least.



Sharon will run sprints if Mercer closes. They're chomping at the bit to get sprints back, and a lot of guys prefer there with the new surface. 

 

All-stars will be fine. Kemenah will be back leading the charge, along with Smith. Helms improved a lot throughout the season and is a quality car. I'm sure there will be cars that fall off (Matus, Garvin, Mackisons come to mind) but they'll pick up other teams (Trevor Baker I could see, maybe Carl Bowser). Would be awesome if Dale got a ride.



beezr2002
November 07, 2017 at 03:49:43 PM
Joined: 04/21/2017
Posts: 117
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PA weekly car counts have been dropping for some time now. From what I am used to, anything less than a full field is anemic. Big half miles are hard to afford for many local racers these days. The grove is lucky to get 20-22 cars anymore, its just a shell of what it used to be on a regular friday night, fewer cars and fewer fans.



W2Motorsports
November 07, 2017 at 04:00:28 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 61
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Posted By: beezr2002 on November 07 2017 at 03:49:43 PM

PA weekly car counts have been dropping for some time now. From what I am used to, anything less than a full field is anemic. Big half miles are hard to afford for many local racers these days. The grove is lucky to get 20-22 cars anymore, its just a shell of what it used to be on a regular friday night, fewer cars and fewer fans.



The fewer cars thing is just racing as a whole, everything is crazy expensive. The guys running 360s now, were probably the same guys who were the lower budget guys in 410s 15 years ago. The ones running 305s now were the ones who could afford 358s a few years back. Racing has left a lot of people behind over the years due to cost, I have a friend who has a good/decent job ($17/hr) and he lives by himself, no kids, nothing and he can barely afford to run Micros. Those people used to be the backbone of local racing. I don't think its a Central PA problem though, I saw the same things when I lived in North Dakota, and New England before that. The fewer fans, is partially shifting demographics but also partially the Grove putting on horrible racing lately. The National Open this year was the biggest example of that too. As far as Lincoln goes you have to get there early if you want a half way decent seat.

 

Thanks,

Jeff.



racefanigan
November 07, 2017 at 04:00:29 PM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 47
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beezr, you got it made with 20-22 cars. It wasnt until 2 years ago I had to go to Jackson MN and watch 5-8 (usually closer to 5) 360s show up weekly.

 

20 isnt so bad.



onporch
November 07, 2017 at 04:04:22 PM
Joined: 02/12/2017
Posts: 32
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Posted By: madsen on November 07 2017 at 10:48:39 AM

A team wouldn't travel full time with the WoO unless they were contracted and received the goodies that go along with being contracted, but don't think the WoO would want the expense that go along with having 20 contracted teams or would they? I think 16 has been the most thus far.   They can always get locals to fill the event, either voluntarily or throwing a few bucks at teams as an incentive to come race with them and fill the event. 

Is it true that both of Bobby Allen's team cars each get tow money for each event even though in the same hauler?   



 

Yes.  Logan confirmed in an interview (I think the one from EMMR) that they get 2X tow money despite having (almost) one hauler. 



HoldenCaulfield
November 07, 2017 at 04:19:55 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 1278
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Posted By: beezr2002 on November 07 2017 at 03:49:43 PM

PA weekly car counts have been dropping for some time now. From what I am used to, anything less than a full field is anemic. Big half miles are hard to afford for many local racers these days. The grove is lucky to get 20-22 cars anymore, its just a shell of what it used to be on a regular friday night, fewer cars and fewer fans.



I agree that regular friday night shows at the Grove are a shell of what they used to be. There's just no doubt about that. Back in the 80's, 90's even early 00's; everybody who was anybody was at the Grove on Friday night. They paid the most and it was the creme de la creme. The Saturday night tracks were pretty much the B-league with the good cars all split out. Nowadays there's a lot of good teams that mostly race Saturdays and could care less about the Grove. It's shame(for the Grove) that's not the case anymore and I think the fact that it costs a mint to run weekly on a 1/2 mile nowadays is the biggest reason for the change. However, IMO 20 cars is a decent field especially if most of them are good quality equipment which IMO is the case. I remember all 3 Saturday night tracks drawing full fields PLUS back in the day but there wasn't as many divisions(360, 358, 305), just "super sprints". In truth the majority of those cars were hoping for a top 10 finish and couldn't crack the top 10 of a 305 feature nowadays. Car counts are a little bit overrated. I just want to see a good feature with several good cars duking it out. A B-main with a bunch of also-rans just holds up the show. 



HoldenCaulfield
November 07, 2017 at 04:21:45 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 1278
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Posted By: onporch on November 07 2017 at 04:04:22 PM

 

Yes.  Logan confirmed in an interview (I think the one from EMMR) that they get 2X tow money despite having (almost) one hauler. 



Who cares how many haulers? They put 2 cars on the track. That's what counts. Nobody pays to look at the haulers.



beezr2002
November 07, 2017 at 07:20:51 PM
Joined: 04/21/2017
Posts: 117
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Good points about the lower car counts due to incrreasing sprint car divisions.



GTigers55
November 07, 2017 at 07:45:08 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 277
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The average car count for 410 sprints in OH this year between all races was 43 cars so as someone mentioned above OH tracks are doing fine. That number is boosted by a number of large events and all star races, but even individual tracks put up respectable numbers. Attica's LOWEST count all year was 24 cars but averaged 38 cars a race (9 weekly, 4 ASCoC, 1 WoO). Fremont which ran entirely on the weekly racing averaged 26 cars a race over all 12 races. Wayne County had an average of 31.5 cars (9 weekly, 5 ASCoC). Atomic averaged 30 cars a race over 10 races (3 of these were ASCoC). And the two unsanctioned races at Mansfield for the Triple Crown and the 2 at Sharon drew an average of 23 cars at each track as non-weekly tracks. Mansfield had 64 winged 410s for the highest count in OH for the GLDN. Car counts are up here, and we have 305s so can't blame divisions either. Just depends on location. Sad to see Mercer go but I imagine Wayne County will see a few of those cars semi-weekly, as some of the Western PA guys came out here even last year. Tracks have gotta pay the drivers in that area or nobody will come...



revjimk
November 07, 2017 at 09:32:01 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3333
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Posted By: GTigers55 on November 07 2017 at 07:45:08 PM

The average car count for 410 sprints in OH this year between all races was 43 cars so as someone mentioned above OH tracks are doing fine. That number is boosted by a number of large events and all star races, but even individual tracks put up respectable numbers. Attica's LOWEST count all year was 24 cars but averaged 38 cars a race (9 weekly, 4 ASCoC, 1 WoO). Fremont which ran entirely on the weekly racing averaged 26 cars a race over all 12 races. Wayne County had an average of 31.5 cars (9 weekly, 5 ASCoC). Atomic averaged 30 cars a race over 10 races (3 of these were ASCoC). And the two unsanctioned races at Mansfield for the Triple Crown and the 2 at Sharon drew an average of 23 cars at each track as non-weekly tracks. Mansfield had 64 winged 410s for the highest count in OH for the GLDN. Car counts are up here, and we have 305s so can't blame divisions either. Just depends on location. Sad to see Mercer go but I imagine Wayne County will see a few of those cars semi-weekly, as some of the Western PA guys came out here even last year. Tracks have gotta pay the drivers in that area or nobody will come...



Wow. I went to Attica fot the first time this past Spring for Allstars & it was great, hope to come back



revjimk
November 07, 2017 at 09:36:52 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3333
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Posted By: railfan33 on November 07 2017 at 02:27:29 PM

Considering a full field is 24 cars, I would consider 20 to be anemic. I recognize Lincoln usually doesn’t have a full field problem, Williams Grove and Port do. Special shows are not a problem but weekly shows could be an issue.



I'm not gonna argue about whether or not the term "anemic" applies, but I tend to agree. Less than 24 cars makes heats less meaningful. I guess I'm kind of spoiled in reverse, don't live close enough to any good tracks to see many weekly shows, usually only go to bigger events

Sad to hear so many tracks with diminishing car counts....



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
November 08, 2017 at 08:50:01 AM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1391
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W2 hit the nail on the head when they posted "The fewer cars thing is just racing as a whole, everything is crazy expensive".

The new divisions aren't ruining sprint car racing, they're keeping it alive!! Who the heck can afford a $60,000 410 motor that needs to be freshened every 6 or so races? The drivers and teams are their own worst enemy in this whole thing. People are forced to drop down in classes because they keep spending more and more money just to be semi-competitive.

You can run a 410 with a $60,000 motor, or you could buy 4 complete Racesaver sprints for the cost of that motor. There's nobody to blame but the teams who spend that ridiculous amount of money.


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

W2Motorsports
November 08, 2017 at 09:05:02 AM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 61
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Posted By: GTigers55 on November 07 2017 at 07:45:08 PM

The average car count for 410 sprints in OH this year between all races was 43 cars so as someone mentioned above OH tracks are doing fine. That number is boosted by a number of large events and all star races, but even individual tracks put up respectable numbers. Attica's LOWEST count all year was 24 cars but averaged 38 cars a race (9 weekly, 4 ASCoC, 1 WoO). Fremont which ran entirely on the weekly racing averaged 26 cars a race over all 12 races. Wayne County had an average of 31.5 cars (9 weekly, 5 ASCoC). Atomic averaged 30 cars a race over 10 races (3 of these were ASCoC). And the two unsanctioned races at Mansfield for the Triple Crown and the 2 at Sharon drew an average of 23 cars at each track as non-weekly tracks. Mansfield had 64 winged 410s for the highest count in OH for the GLDN. Car counts are up here, and we have 305s so can't blame divisions either. Just depends on location. Sad to see Mercer go but I imagine Wayne County will see a few of those cars semi-weekly, as some of the Western PA guys came out here even last year. Tracks have gotta pay the drivers in that area or nobody will come...



Here in PA we do have a little bit of an issue with different divisions. I understand and fully support the progression system for Sprints, but in Central PA it is pretty rough. We have: 410 Sprints, 360 Sprints, 358 Sprints, 305 Sprints and Super Sportsman (both winged and wingless), and Midgets which are all pulling from essentially the same group of drivers. In addition there will now be a 360 Wingless series as well in this area starting next season, along with the threat of the RUSH Sprints moving in as well in the next few years. If we had just 410s and 305s only I think our car counts would become quite a bit healthier, but I do think the 358/360 class serves a very important purpose in Central PA and I enjoy seeing them. I could probably do without the Wingless stuff, and the Super Sportsman though but thats just me! I know they are both pretty popular.



csracing72c
November 08, 2017 at 09:07:44 AM
Joined: 11/16/2011
Posts: 393
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There is still a ton of 410's out there. Just hard to compete against the big money teams. They not only have the big HP engines but also the best of everything on their cars. There are also plenty of 410 guys with 20 yr old engines that can sneak out top 10's on slick tracks. 



W2Motorsports
November 08, 2017 at 09:07:48 AM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 61
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Posted By: Eagle Pit Shack Guy on November 08 2017 at 08:50:01 AM

W2 hit the nail on the head when they posted "The fewer cars thing is just racing as a whole, everything is crazy expensive".

The new divisions aren't ruining sprint car racing, they're keeping it alive!! Who the heck can afford a $60,000 410 motor that needs to be freshened every 6 or so races? The drivers and teams are their own worst enemy in this whole thing. People are forced to drop down in classes because they keep spending more and more money just to be semi-competitive.

You can run a 410 with a $60,000 motor, or you could buy 4 complete Racesaver sprints for the cost of that motor. There's nobody to blame but the teams who spend that ridiculous amount of money.



I'll be going to the swap meet in Harrisburg this weekend to buy my first Sprint Car. I'm planning to run with all of the Racesaver series here in PA next season. From someone like me with a background in Late Models the Racesaver class seems like it is setup and managed very well, and its the only "affordable" (relatively speaking) division that actually has remained somewhat affordable (the equivalent "affordable" LM division is Crate Late Models where you can spend $60k on a new car to still just race for $500 to win weekly).

 

Thanks,

Jeff.



alum.427
November 08, 2017 at 09:22:28 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 382
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4 complete racesaver sprints huh. So your talking 15,000 each. New or Used ? The 1 and the only 1 thing all this crate and racesaver garbage saves you money is that you can run the motors for a long time with minimal maintenance. Every other part on that car cost the same be it a 410 or a 305. These guys race for peanuts, unless you are winning you'd be lucky to break even. God forbid if you wad one up. And, I will correct myself, tire wear is less, and you don't need a stupid arsh shock package. You pay the same coming in that pit gate as every other racer and crew member. So i will put this out there, if at your local track let's say 18 cars show up. Why are the payouts peanuts ? Any promotor across the land loves these classes, bring your family in the stands and your 4 or 5 buddies in the pits. Ridiculous. O and don't forget the j-off that if it's a series race that they get there cut to. A lot more than the racer gets.



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
November 08, 2017 at 09:22:47 AM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1391
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Posted By: W2Motorsports on November 08 2017 at 09:07:48 AM

I'll be going to the swap meet in Harrisburg this weekend to buy my first Sprint Car. I'm planning to run with all of the Racesaver series here in PA next season. From someone like me with a background in Late Models the Racesaver class seems like it is setup and managed very well, and its the only "affordable" (relatively speaking) division that actually has remained somewhat affordable (the equivalent "affordable" LM division is Crate Late Models where you can spend $60k on a new car to still just race for $500 to win weekly).

 

Thanks,

Jeff.



One of the fellows who joined the Racesaver class at Eagle Raceway was a former Late Model driver. He loved the car and the competition; not to mention the MUCH lower cost.

Hope you get a chance to come out to the Racesaver Nationals. You'll love the experience.


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
November 08, 2017 at 09:28:44 AM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1391
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Posted By: alum.427 on November 08 2017 at 09:22:28 AM

4 complete racesaver sprints huh. So your talking 15,000 each. New or Used ? The 1 and the only 1 thing all this crate and racesaver garbage saves you money is that you can run the motors for a long time with minimal maintenance. Every other part on that car cost the same be it a 410 or a 305. These guys race for peanuts, unless you are winning you'd be lucky to break even. God forbid if you wad one up. And, I will correct myself, tire wear is less, and you don't need a stupid arsh shock package. You pay the same coming in that pit gate as every other racer and crew member. So i will put this out there, if at your local track let's say 18 cars show up. Why are the payouts peanuts ? Any promotor across the land loves these classes, bring your family in the stands and your 4 or 5 buddies in the pits. Ridiculous. O and don't forget the j-off that if it's a series race that they get there cut to. A lot more than the racer gets.



I will tell you that Roger Hadan was initially selling complete ready-to-race Racesaver legal sprint cars for around $12,000 in the beginning. I'm not positive whether or not they were all brand-spanking new or not though.

Let's say (to make you happy and make the math easy) a complete car costs $20,000. That's the ENTIRE car, for 1/3 the price of a top-of-the-line 410 motor, not taking into account the rest of the car to put the 410 in.


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

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