Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

What about the Weld's.... Flat tore up the Midwest back in their day.

Kyle Larson?  Had to get the smelling salts out when I saw him in the same category with Kinser, Swindell, Schatz, Wolf, on and on.  IF, if he had spent much much more time in sprint cars, both winged and non-wing and in midgets, and had won some of the big races like the Nationals a few times and WoO titles, maybe, just maybe  but to say that a big race he won was Eldora, that's sort of like saying that every weekened sprint car race at Eldora is a BIG race?   Or every weekend sprint car race at Knoxville is a BIG race.  Win one of each and you are top shelf. 

Lawlessness + liberalism = HELL -  NYC, Detroit, Chicago, 
Seattle, LA  Who the H runs those cities. 

But that list for the most part didn't "load up and win anywhere from coast to coast" except for Stevie Smith, Jr. And his WoO numbers are plenty good, but he falls short when it comes to winning the big ones. Local track championships don't make for the proper requirements to be among the best in the country. There are local track champions everywhere. Of course, if your top shelf is going to include 25-30 drivers then yeh add all the drivers you want. Personally I think the list is for the elite, and that limits how many meet the requirements to be top shelf.  Plus, elite should fill each category mentioned in the initial post at a national level of competition against the best of the best on a regular basis.

So winning a USAC midget, sprint car, and silver crown feature in the same night (Eldora USAC 4 Crown) is not a big deal? If you think that, then I don't know what to say.

Should we just copy and paste the list of the drivers in the Hall of Fame then? 

If you were starting a new team and could hire any driver you wanted, as someone stated, Larson would be near (or the top) of your list I hope. That is top tier.

If you copy and list all of the Hall of Fame drivers to the top shelf list.......Larson isn't on it! That should tell you something. And with his credentials as they are today....he wouldn't have nearly enough stats to make the Sprint Car Hall of Fame. He'll need to accomplish a hell of a lot more than he has.

Ok. Well then, please give us your top tier list.

     I'd be curious to see what criteria you would use to make a list of who you'd put in the top tier.

Only two driver are at the very top of the shelf that are real boni fide top top shelf and that's the Texan A.J. Foyt and Tony Stewart.  They've proved it in Indy Car, Midgets, Sprints and Nascar. 

 Lawlessness and liberalism equals Hell.  NY City, 
Detroit, Seattle, Chicago, Minnepolis, etc. We saw it. 
Burning hundreds of buildings, a thousand assaults and 
dozens of murders. Getting worser and worser.

You can't discredit Larson's sprint car accomplishments just because he succeeded outside of sprint car racing.  If Kinser or Sammy would have succeeded in their quest to run Indy cars (in the early-mid 80's) or Nascar (in the 90's) would you have discounted what they had accomplished up to that point just because they didn't run long enough?  If Kinser would have jumped in an Indy car in 1981 and landed a full-time ride, he would have ended with far less than 100 WOO wins.  Same guy.  Less sprint car wins.  Same with Sammy.  All they got was a brief sniff of success outside of the WOO and then it was right back to sprint cars.  (Lucky for us) 

The path Kyle has chosen does not take away from the success he has had and continues to have every time he straps into a sprinter.  Remember, he and Donny hit the track together many times this year.  The guy you have in your top 4 of all time only beat him one time and it was by one spot.  Otherwise, Kyle, a part-time driver, drove by Schatz at every other track like he was a lap car.  Many, including myself, believe Donny would be getting his ass handed to him if Kyle ran a full season with the Outlaws.  

Because of this, I put him on the list---even though he has not yet fullfilled Blazer's original qualification of "having a fairly long racing career".  Health permitting, that is coming.  And Blazer, the Sprint Car Hall of Fame, while not a sure bet, is a likely accomplishment for Kyle. 

I like the topic---cool to debate.  But there are really no right or wrong answers when comparing different eras, different career paths, etc.  Just my opinion and your opinion.  We can pretty much all agree with the top 4 or 5--no doubt.  Let the debate continue with the rest.  

Have a good day :)

     Actually it wasn't Blaze's original qualification of "having a fairly long racing career". It was mine. That's a criteria that I'm using, others may see it differently.

     I don't know that I'd consider this a debate, as that implies a winner and a loser. It's more of a discussion among people with similar interests but differing opinions. I found myself last night researching the Weld brothers as several people have mentioned them. I didn't know there were 3 racing Weld brothers.

Mario Andretti not only matches the exploits of Foyt and Stewart, he won a F1 championship which surpasses both of them.....

I did.....look at earlier post.....:)

So we're back to "ifs" and 'buts", "wouldas", couldas" and shouldas" ......you know how I feel about those......trying to justify something based on that criteria. I don't discount anything Larson has done.....what he has done is what?  He has 4 WoO feature wins so far in what......20-25 events (I'm guessing)? And you say he's passing Schatz like a lapped car! That's funny right there!. As for the drivers I choose to consider Top Shelf...thay have all done it, no "what ifs" to consider.

My point regarding Larson quite simply is this. Sure he can be on anybody's top shelf list. If that's the case, then that top shelf had better be awful damn full, because there are countless drivers who have accomplished far more than Larson has. And "what he might do" will not count until he does it. Would Schatz have been on the top shelf his rookie year? Today he'd better be on everybody's. I've declared my top shelf....nine drivers based on all time. I'm niether right or wrong. I simply feel that the top shelf is an exclusive position to place a driver. If it isn't, then like many Halls of Fame, it can become dilluted with too many honorees. Maybe the thread should have stated that the Top Shelf can contain only five drivers, or even ten drivers. Who would those lists contain?  I know I've dug in pretty hard here, and I apologize if I've pissed anybody off. I'm not putting any more emphasis on the length of a driver's career than any of the other criteria mentioned in the original post. To me they all carry the same weight. I'll shut up now.....is that applause I hear? LOL

Let's go back. Opperman, weld, allen, van may, dub , smith , hewitt, vogler, Lee james, these guys were for the most part on the road before Ted Johnson had his first race. Along with many more. These guys had to place or they were done. They raced  up and down the east coast and mid west. Legends are not made by checkered flags alone. To me legends are guys that pull into the pits and you understand you have to be on your game to beat the guy. 

Drivers like Eddie Leavitt won the Nations back in the day when it was truly a big open event, plus the Tony Hulman classic against USAC's best. Won Silver Crown event. Won a big event like Manzanita. Many drivers have no where close to that type of record.

Dave Darland, Tony Stewart, Kyle Larson, Ron Shuman, Dean Thompson, Vogler, Gary Bettenhausen, Steve Chassey.

Maybe someone on here knows the answer to an Opperman question, did he only win two races at Knoxville in his career?

He may have won just two races at Knoxville, I guess I don't know the answer to that. PA is the only place Opperman really spent any prolonged time as a driver. I do know that Opperman's career really spanned from 1971-1976. The injuries he sustained on Sept 11th, 1976 at the Indiana State Fairgrounds pretty much ended his career as "Jan Opperman". The big taces back then except for the Knoxville Nationals are races of the past, and few fans today are aware of them.  But he did win more than his share of the big races from that decade. USAC, IMCA and Outlaw even though the WoO did not exist. The term Outlaw driver existed well before the formation of the WoO. The Western States at Manzanita was one of the big gatherings of prominant drivers. He won in '72 and '73. He won the Hullman Classic, was champion in the Big Car racing Association, Selinsgrove Speedway Champion, won the IMCA Winternationals in Tampa twice, was the Northwest Dirt Cup Series Champion in '75 and that's just a sample of what he did. He won a ton of races in PA against his main rival of the day, Kenny Weld. In 1972 he ran 100 dirt races and won 44 features with 12 seconds. Unprecedented for that time period. He also established many track performance records in the '70's. He won on the mile tracks, the half mile and short tracks. He would also hire out to just about any owner between races in whatever his regular ride was at any given time....and win in cars that had never won before. In his travels he was also known for stopping at some of the better known tracks that had put bounties on their very best invincible drivers, and Opperman would leave with that bounty money in his pocket. Bubby Jones spoke about that in an article years ago in Open Wheel. Said that  at his home track Opperman showed up one night because the track owner had put a bounty on Jones. They lined up side by side for the feature and going down the back stretch headed for the green they were each bumping rear tires with one another. Jones stated that in his mind he was determined to go into turn one harder than he ever had before and put Opperman in his place. At the green, going into one, Jones said "Opperman went by me like I was tied to a post". He and Opperman would become great friends, and Jones had many great accomplishments of his own. If you can put your hands on the book "Dialed In" by John Sawyer, do it. It's a great book about Opperman and his short career as the best.

larsonfan-

      I'm curious who else would be on your list besides Larson?

I was just curious about his record. Actually I saw him race a ton and actually knew him. I was supprised when I read somewhere about the number of wins at Knoxville. When he raced at Knoxville and IMCA regularly it was a tough group to win in. Sutcliffe, Ray Goodwin, Leavitt, Lonnie Jenson, Jerry Blundy, Thad Dosher, the Welds, all in all a tough crowd.

Cool, and yeh Knoxville and IMCA were loaded back then. I pitted with a couple drivers back then Edd French and Bob Adams who travelled up together from the southwest, when I was living in Lincoln, NE.  Got to see Opp quite a few times myself. We went to an All Star show in Topeka one Friday night, and Opp was gone by more than a half lap.....white flag lap he thought was checker....backed off in the backstretch and Weld went by him. This was a few weeks before the Knoxville Nationals, in  '73. We were sitting in the pits after just jawing and Opp joined in and visited with us until about 5AM.