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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead

Topic: Kinser / Schatz equalibrium
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Murphy
October 06, 2017 at 03:43:28 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
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Posted By: dsc1600 on October 06 2017 at 02:49:51 PM

Gravel won 16 already this year, so he’s over 30 wins already.



   How right you are!  I transposed a number. Thanks for catching that.

     WoO history site shows he has 31 WoO feature wins. To catch Schatz he will only need 198 more wins. At an average of 5.17 per year, it will actually only take about 38 years- give or take.



motorhead748
October 06, 2017 at 03:51:10 PM
Joined: 08/05/2010
Posts: 392
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Posted By: Murphy on October 06 2017 at 09:23:13 AM

     That brings up an interesting question. Which would you rather have- Tony Stewart's money or Karl Kinser turning the wrenches?



The thing is the 15 has both...  obviously Tony's money & Ricky is a Karl Kinser protoge.

 



cubicdollars
October 06, 2017 at 05:25:53 PM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4103
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Kinser won a % of races because he had a mechanically dominant race car. I don't know if Schatz has ever had the best motors on the Outlaw tour. They are starting to up their horsepower now because of the Outlaw qualifying format.

Kinser also won a % of races by taking people out Dale Earnhardt style. Schatz on the other hand is one of the cleanest race drivers to ever strap in.

Schatz is also a better spokesman for the sport. He doesn't need to keep doing it for the money. That was part of Kinser's longevity later on. Schatz is well off outside of racing and does it mainly out of passion now. Schatz has tried to help the sport with things like the Alternative 410 Motor Program. Kinser even fought the weight rule (even though it helped him most!) tooth and nail and split the sport with the NST. Schatz has never looked back since he did.

I don't know which one would win if they were both 30, Kinser might take Schatz out. But I definitely know which one most owners would rather have in their race cars. The one that doesn't crash much and didn't need 17:1 Knoxville grenade motors to win 10 out of the last 12.


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com


blazer00
October 06, 2017 at 05:51:20 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
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So now, according to you, like Sammy as many claim, Kinser was a big winner because he either ran other drivers off the track or booted them out of the way. That is what you're saying, right? Get real!



motorhead748
October 06, 2017 at 06:50:01 PM
Joined: 08/05/2010
Posts: 392
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Posted By: cubicdollars on October 06 2017 at 05:25:53 PM

Kinser won a % of races because he had a mechanically dominant race car. I don't know if Schatz has ever had the best motors on the Outlaw tour. They are starting to up their horsepower now because of the Outlaw qualifying format.

Kinser also won a % of races by taking people out Dale Earnhardt style. Schatz on the other hand is one of the cleanest race drivers to ever strap in.

Schatz is also a better spokesman for the sport. He doesn't need to keep doing it for the money. That was part of Kinser's longevity later on. Schatz is well off outside of racing and does it mainly out of passion now. Schatz has tried to help the sport with things like the Alternative 410 Motor Program. Kinser even fought the weight rule (even though it helped him most!) tooth and nail and split the sport with the NST. Schatz has never looked back since he did.

I don't know which one would win if they were both 30, Kinser might take Schatz out. But I definitely know which one most owners would rather have in their race cars. The one that doesn't crash much and didn't need 17:1 Knoxville grenade motors to win 10 out of the last 12.



I've owned, driven and watched sprint cars for 35 years and that is one of the silliest things I've ever heard/read. 



GTigers55
October 06, 2017 at 06:51:55 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 277
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This message was edited on October 06, 2017 at 06:52:45 PM by GTigers55

I think both are equally great drivers but I think one thing that isn't looked at much is the fact that Kinser was one of the original outlaws. While this doesn't take away from his accomplishments, many of the drivers who ran the first 10 or so years on the tour were on "equal pegging" of not having raced at many of the tracks they ran at. By the time guys like Schatz had started racing, Kinser had raced at some of the tracks for nearly 20 years whereas Schatz had never seen the places before. My only argument here would be that it's harder for a rookie in todays era of racing because they have to "catch up" to the veteran teams both logistically and on the track. Whereas in the first years everyone was more or less on level pegging to start, which ensured "equal" matchups at each track they visited. I think that does show that Kinser and team had the best ability to adjust to each track mechanically and in driver ability. But I do also believe that it typically takes longer for modern rookies to get a win due to the experience of other drivers on tour. Look at Sheldon and Brent this year for example. Both have a good sum of wins in other series and competition but have yet to crack through even though they're very talented young drivers. I'm not saying they're Steve or Donny just that it takes longer for young drivers to crack through. Donny didn't start as the best driver in the WoO his rookie year, where Kinser did as it was the inception of the WoO. I'll always believe that skews the statisitcs a little bit.



cubicdollars
October 06, 2017 at 07:47:16 PM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4103
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Posted By: blazer00 on October 06 2017 at 05:51:20 PM

So now, according to you, like Sammy as many claim, Kinser was a big winner because he either ran other drivers off the track or booted them out of the way. That is what you're saying, right? Get real!



Kinser was quick to move lap cars out of the way or spin one of them out if he needed a yellow. More so than racing for the lead, though that happened some also. He wasn't as bad as Earnhardt though. Sprint cars have open wheels...lol.

I put no number in front of the % above for a reason. No one really knows. Karl's motors and lightweight cars are a MUCH greater % than his dirty driving though. I will give you that. 80% car/20% driver is the historical standard for any race team no matter who you are. Warner also has comparable setup greatness to Karl, but he has a lot more rulebook to have to work around. Karl could build the best motor and win a ton of races with it. Now everyone has the best motor. You are not going to win 50 races a year because you have the best motor anymore.

Most of Schatz's wins have come with no more motor than anyone else. Most of them he weighed more than the minimum weigh rule until he lost all the weight the other year. And he wins without crashing anyone. He can't put up the same numbers as Kinser did is the only argument. Schatz has had some great years, but until he has a Kinser or Wolfgang titanium crank year winning a majority of races, I guess you guys will keep doubting if Schatz can wheel a sprint car as good as Kinser.

Read into the % what you want. You will anyway...lol.

 

Tony Stewart "Got wrecked by asshole teammate Steve Kinser" video...lol. https://youtu.be/hURmfODGcqE


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com


blazer00
October 06, 2017 at 08:00:44 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
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Posted By: cubicdollars on October 06 2017 at 07:47:16 PM

Kinser was quick to move lap cars out of the way or spin one of them out if he needed a yellow. More so than racing for the lead, though that happened some also. He wasn't as bad as Earnhardt though. Sprint cars have open wheels...lol.

I put no number in front of the % above for a reason. No one really knows. Karl's motors and lightweight cars are a MUCH greater % than his dirty driving though. I will give you that. 80% car/20% driver is the historical standard for any race team no matter who you are. Warner also has comparable setup greatness to Karl, but he has a lot more rulebook to have to work around. Karl could build the best motor and win a ton of races with it. Now everyone has the best motor. You are not going to win 50 races a year because you have the best motor anymore.

Most of Schatz's wins have come with no more motor than anyone else. Most of them he weighed more than the minimum weigh rule until he lost all the weight the other year. And he wins without crashing anyone. He can't put up the same numbers as Kinser did is the only argument. Schatz has had some great years, but until he has a Kinser or Wolfgang titanium crank year winning a majority of races, I guess you guys will keep doubting if Schatz can wheel a sprint car as good as Kinser.

Read into the % what you want. You will anyway...lol.

 

Tony Stewart "Got wrecked by asshole teammate Steve Kinser" video...lol. https://youtu.be/hURmfODGcqE



That's funny right there. Using cry baby Stewart to back up your claim. Stewart has been involved in more metal bending than a fabricator! And "never his fault". Kinser and all of them have gotten into somebody at one time or another.....but that isn't what his career was built on for cripes sake.



sprintfast
October 06, 2017 at 08:03:50 PM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 162
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Posted By: cubicdollars on October 06 2017 at 07:47:16 PM

Kinser was quick to move lap cars out of the way or spin one of them out if he needed a yellow. More so than racing for the lead, though that happened some also. He wasn't as bad as Earnhardt though. Sprint cars have open wheels...lol.

I put no number in front of the % above for a reason. No one really knows. Karl's motors and lightweight cars are a MUCH greater % than his dirty driving though. I will give you that. 80% car/20% driver is the historical standard for any race team no matter who you are. Warner also has comparable setup greatness to Karl, but he has a lot more rulebook to have to work around. Karl could build the best motor and win a ton of races with it. Now everyone has the best motor. You are not going to win 50 races a year because you have the best motor anymore.

Most of Schatz's wins have come with no more motor than anyone else. Most of them he weighed more than the minimum weigh rule until he lost all the weight the other year. And he wins without crashing anyone. He can't put up the same numbers as Kinser did is the only argument. Schatz has had some great years, but until he has a Kinser or Wolfgang titanium crank year winning a majority of races, I guess you guys will keep doubting if Schatz can wheel a sprint car as good as Kinser.

Read into the % what you want. You will anyway...lol.

 

Tony Stewart "Got wrecked by asshole teammate Steve Kinser" video...lol. https://youtu.be/hURmfODGcqE



Cubicdollars has made some good points the last couple weeks. 



StanM
MyWebsite MyResults MyPressRelease
October 07, 2017 at 07:32:20 AM
Joined: 11/07/2006
Posts: 3958
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This message was edited on October 07, 2017 at 07:36:59 AM by StanM

I generally don't pick a favorite in these kinds of discussions. It's not so much Kinser vs Schatz as Kinser and Schatz.  I have followed and had close encounters with both and appreciate what both have accomplished.  I had the opportunity to interview both back when I was doing that and take portrait shots and that sort of thing.  I missed Kinser the first couple of times he came up this way and didn't see him race until around 83 and saw him race every season through the remainder of his career.  When he came around the final time I gave him an action shot I took and had him sign an identical copy and that meant a lot.

Schatz started racing Sprints in the now defunct WISSOTA 360s and we saw him pretty often and still get a laugh over the observation that he might be pretty good some day when he learned not to drive over his head.  Actually told my son that one night during his Heat race so it's a humorous memory.

Even though their careers overlap the first cars Kinser drove we're vastly different than what Donny drives today. These things today are like rocket ships compared to the early 80s.  Kinser was the master of his era and Schatz has been the best in today's cars.  One of these days one of these young guys will stand out from the rest and give him a run for his money.  I'm not sure if we'll ever see this kind of dominance because it takes longevity and that is never assured.

When I was a kid I thought Jerry Richert and Scratch Daniels we're the best ever and would never be surpassed.  I thought those wingless cageless cars with the skinny tires were the pinacle of dirt track technology and that nothing could ever be faster.  It's funny how time changes everything.  Enjoy the ride friends and cherish the racing you're seeing today.  It is tomorrow's history.


Stan Meissner

dsc1600
October 07, 2017 at 09:53:36 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2137
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Schatz will never break the King's all time WoO win record. 

One thing he likely will do is obliterate Kinser's records at the Triple Crown events (Nationals, Royal, Natty Open)

Kinser has 23 wins in those events, Schatz is already at 19. 

 

 



ThePurple73
October 07, 2017 at 04:50:44 PM
Joined: 08/04/2010
Posts: 218
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Steve Kinser and Sammy Swindell tried Indy Cars, Steve won several USAC silver crown races. Sammy did well in the Chili Bowl racing midgets. They both also raced in the non-wing days when competition was terrific and worked their way to the top. I believe the comparison is apples and oranges givien types of racing, competition, diverse types of cars,  wing/non-wing. Not to take anything at all away from Danny or David but I believe its a huge difference in comparison.



motorhead748
October 07, 2017 at 05:35:59 PM
Joined: 08/05/2010
Posts: 392
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Posted By: ThePurple73 on October 07 2017 at 04:50:44 PM

Steve Kinser and Sammy Swindell tried Indy Cars, Steve won several USAC silver crown races. Sammy did well in the Chili Bowl racing midgets. They both also raced in the non-wing days when competition was terrific and worked their way to the top. I believe the comparison is apples and oranges givien types of racing, competition, diverse types of cars,  wing/non-wing. Not to take anything at all away from Danny or David but I believe its a huge difference in comparison.



We have a winner. 



egras
October 07, 2017 at 10:44:26 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1726
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Posted By: Murphy on October 06 2017 at 03:43:28 PM

   How right you are!  I transposed a number. Thanks for catching that.

     WoO history site shows he has 31 WoO feature wins. To catch Schatz he will only need 198 more wins. At an average of 5.17 per year, it will actually only take about 38 years- give or take.



Who actually thinks Gravel is going to average 5.17 wins per year from here on out?  Let's be a little more realistic.  I know that's the average if you include the years before he won--but that time is over.  Should he decide to run WOO full-time for the next 10 years, he hits double digits every single year.  Multiple 20 win seasons are also likely.  Once again, this is all predicated on him running full-time WOO. 

If I do the math, he wins 150 races in the next 10 years with his eyes closed.   And at that point, he's 35 years old.  



blazer00
October 08, 2017 at 11:07:39 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
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Posted By: egras on October 07 2017 at 10:44:26 PM

Who actually thinks Gravel is going to average 5.17 wins per year from here on out?  Let's be a little more realistic.  I know that's the average if you include the years before he won--but that time is over.  Should he decide to run WOO full-time for the next 10 years, he hits double digits every single year.  Multiple 20 win seasons are also likely.  Once again, this is all predicated on him running full-time WOO. 

If I do the math, he wins 150 races in the next 10 years with his eyes closed.   And at that point, he's 35 years old.  



Two things. First, I doubt he will maintain the same quality ride he currently enjoys. Rides seem to have a way of disintegrating these days even when pretty successful. And I don't think he has everything it takes to carry a team to wins. Second, being on tour with the WoO for 25, 30, 35 years is soon, if not ayready, a thing of the past. And that's what it takes to get the numbers as you state, also.



Murphy
October 08, 2017 at 09:25:00 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 671
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Posted By: egras on October 07 2017 at 10:44:26 PM

Who actually thinks Gravel is going to average 5.17 wins per year from here on out?  Let's be a little more realistic.  I know that's the average if you include the years before he won--but that time is over.  Should he decide to run WOO full-time for the next 10 years, he hits double digits every single year.  Multiple 20 win seasons are also likely.  Once again, this is all predicated on him running full-time WOO. 

If I do the math, he wins 150 races in the next 10 years with his eyes closed.   And at that point, he's 35 years old.  



     At first I was going to say that this is only your opinion, etc., but thinking it over more closely, you may be right- even if it is just an opinion. Looking back over historical WoO stats, with only a few, glaring exceptions (Wolfgang and Saldana), any driver who won 12 WoO feature races in a given year was, at some time the points champion. So Gravel has that going for him, which is nice.



egras
October 08, 2017 at 11:30:34 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1726
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Posted By: Murphy on October 08 2017 at 09:25:00 PM

     At first I was going to say that this is only your opinion, etc., but thinking it over more closely, you may be right- even if it is just an opinion. Looking back over historical WoO stats, with only a few, glaring exceptions (Wolfgang and Saldana), any driver who won 12 WoO feature races in a given year was, at some time the points champion. So Gravel has that going for him, which is nice.



Honestly, it is my opinion he gets 150 wins in 10 years.  As blazer stated, you just don't know how the rides sort out over the years---even with current success.  It is my opinion, if given a full-time WOO ride for the next 10 years, it will be a quality ride, he will win double digit races almost (if not every) year, and he will win a championship (or 3).  But it is my opinion only--this will all have to shake out.  The 5 car could announce they won't run WOO next year---who knows?  

If Vegas were to put an over/under on wins over the next 10 years, I think they would set it between 120 and 140.  Therefore, I think 150 wins is more realistic than 51.  Is he going to run 25, 30 or 35 years?  I agree with blazer when he says no.  But he doesn't need to.  He is on pace to have huge numbers 15 years from now.  

Nothing is certain in the racing world but it is my belief we aren't going to need to wait long to know who the next, great, dominant driver is.  He's here already and he's already winning.  



resprinter
October 09, 2017 at 06:29:23 AM
Joined: 06/07/2007
Posts: 189
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Posted By: blazer00 on October 08 2017 at 11:07:39 AM

Two things. First, I doubt he will maintain the same quality ride he currently enjoys. Rides seem to have a way of disintegrating these days even when pretty successful. And I don't think he has everything it takes to carry a team to wins. Second, being on tour with the WoO for 25, 30, 35 years is soon, if not ayready, a thing of the past. And that's what it takes to get the numbers as you state, also.



Right, who knows how long the CJB team will be around. How about this theory; Gravel running under the TSR banner at some point as a teammate to Donny? Never know, it could happen. Who would have ever thought Donny and Steve would be teammates for a couple years?

Gravel's biggest thing to improve on is actually consitency in my opinion. Yes, he's got 17 wins this season yet he's 3rd in points behind Sweet who has only 5 wins. Top 5's are 53 to 41 with Sweet at 53. That tells me Gravel needs some improved consitency. I am impressed though that he's gotten to 17 wins this season.



jmartz11
October 09, 2017 at 10:13:06 AM
Joined: 09/03/2005
Posts: 2047
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Wonder who will ever Win 46 like the King Did back in 1986? 


Long Live  20 Time  World Of Outlaws Champion Steve 
Kinser #11 

budz76
MyWebsite
October 09, 2017 at 05:30:17 PM
Joined: 12/03/2005
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Posted By: Murphy on October 06 2017 at 09:23:13 AM

     That brings up an interesting question. Which would you rather have- Tony Stewart's money or Karl Kinser turning the wrenches?



Depends upon the time frame?

today, it’s all about money, in Karl’s time, it was “make do” with whatever we had.

Put Karl with Tony’s budget and he would be unstoppable!



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