I see used 305 motors selling in the low to mid 20K range, and I will say this, I do not pay any attention to the ad. I see used 410's and 360's selling for roughly the same ammount. THERE IS NO COST DIFFERENCE.  A 305 pays sh*t to win and don't tell me about a race in bum hell nowhere that pays x ammount of money. Must teams come away from those races in the hole. Where is the difference. What does a new complete 305 cost ? Someone out there can answer that. If you pull that 305 and drop a 360 or a 410 between the rails IS THERE A DIFFERENCE ? Does that steering cost less ? How about the rear or the wheels and wings and on and on and on. Here comes the best part. WHAT DOES A 305 FEATURE PAY ?  You can include the 360's in this format also. NEITHER pay sh*t. The purse structure of the 2 classes is a joke for what you have invested. I will say, and I hate to say it, you can level the 410 playing field with one simple change. 1 RR TIRE. It will never happen because Hoosier pays to much into point funds. 

And as far as Dietrich and susky goes. He isn't going to sit home on Sunday. If I was susky management and after his mouth ran off I would be sending him propane for his grill and telling him not to burn the dogs. The other racers won't miss him, and it mite bring a few more cars out. 

Well cubic Altman, if you don't think fans could tell the difference you are stupider than I ever thought.  Slowing 410's down by 3 seconds + per lap on a half mile IS NOTICEABLE! 

You think fans at Knoxville,  Williams Grove, and Eldora wouldn't be able to tell the difference? Heck, anyone can tell in time trials the guys who aren't fast enough to crack the top 10 before their times are even announced. 

Nobody is going to forget over 1 winter how fast a 410 looks on the track compared to a 305 or even a 360.

The answer right now is the 305s. That is the one class that is growing. It is the wrong answer.

Unlimited with less tire and wing is the right answer.

Fans would never be able to tell the difference except they would be called sprint cars again instead of 410s or 360s, and the racing would be better.

Brian Smith Heat Race In-Car Butler Motor Speedway SOD Sprints On Dirt 5/21/16:  https://youtu.be/gxc-NyELXTU

100% on the money. People would notice. Sprint car fans, even some who aren't as die hard as a lot of us who post on here, know their shit and if you slow them down by 3 seconds, it isn't gonna just fall through the cracks. Cubic much like Altman is so far consumed by his delusion, that engaging him, even with pure facts from people who know far better than he does (for example Terry McCarl) is a waste of time. He lives in an alternate reality that he created in his own head.

You clowns are completely wrong. Fans can tell the difference the other way. UNLIMITED is better racing, cheaper and would get people to move up from the 360s instead of down to the 305s.

The only reality is you must be happy with limited sprints taking over the country. First the 360s. Now the 305s. You like things the way they are. I have been against them since the very beginning.

SOD Feature: Crystal Motor Speedway, 7-16-16

Big deal. That was a pretty good race and on the same YouTube machine you used, you can also find a lot of videos of good WoO races as well as Central PA, Ohio, Knoxville, California etc. There's always been and always will be good and bad races. I am happy with the way things are for the most part. Isn't perfect but nothing is. The difference is, people like you and Bob Altman are never happy with anything. Always looking for something to bitch about instead of looking for things to be happy about.

A couple days late for a resurrection here, but: 36 cars at the Grove, and mid-20's at both Port and Lincoln.Not bad.

The answer right now is the 305s. That is the one class that is growing. It is the wrong answer.

Unlimited with less tire and wing is the right answer.

Fans would never be able to tell the difference except they would be called sprint cars again instead of 410s or 360s, and the racing would be better.

Brian Smith Heat Race In-Car Butler Motor Speedway SOD Sprints On Dirt 5/21/16:  https://youtu.be/gxc-NyELXTU

You can definitely tell the difference. Just from watching the videos you keep posting. I would not pay $15 to watch those, not a chance. If you can sit at Port Royal and watch 410s, and then 305s and not notice a difference then you must be blind. I'm not trying to be rude, and I understand the logic behind the argument but I just don't agree with this one. There is a reason a track like Trail Way gets a fraction the amount of the fans that Lincoln gets despite the fact they are basically in the same town. Its because the fans go to see the fast cars, they don't care as much about even the 358s (and these SOD cars would have to be even slower than those in order for 305s to be able to compete). It isn't as prolific in Sprint racing, but look what happens to tracks like Potomac, or Winchester on nights when they are not running SLM. Same track, same support divisions, same cost of admission, one night they will run SLM, and then the next week they run LLM and Crates and the crowd is less than half the size. That will happen with Sprints too. I'm not sure what the fix is, but I'm not sure this suggestion is it.

My .02.

Thanks,

Jeff.

I just came across this thread, so I apologize for being late to the party. I didn't plan on posting, but I see I've been mentioned a few times and I almost feel obligated. First off, I don't believe I know who Cubic is, nor do I keep track of everything he says on here. On this topic of increasing car count though, I have to agree with him. The SOD tire rule would definitely create an environment that would be beneficial to car owners as it pertains to engine costs. Which, I believe is the biggest factor in the dwindling car count. That's the whole reason the other divisions started in the first place, right?. To lower engine costs. I don't believe $15,000 for a top 305 and $40,000 for a 360 make sense as a cost saver anymore. They are just different classes where many times the bigger engines wins. If you want to win, you basically have to have an engine builder build you a killer. Car setup and driver skill matters less and less. Before I get flamed for just being a keyboard cowboy, I do have a fair amount of experience. I'm not a household name like Donny, but I have raced Sprints for over 25 years and have run a season  with the all stars, won a couple races at Attica over guys like Shaffer and Kemenah and won last years SOD championship. Most of the  races I've won have been on dry slick race tracks where the speed is slower. Which makes sense, since I still use a -12 motor that Davey Brown originally built in 1997. I'm able to freshen it each year for less than $6000 and I get 25-30 races out of it. That, by the way, keeps the 410 car count up because I'm just a working man who can afford to keep racing. I think many of the 305/360 guys would switch to 410's if they could compete for wins at  a much lower cost, and a smart tire rule would do that. 

 I don't believe that good racing comes from strictly from the highest speeds. As a matter of fact, I believe the best races happen on slicker slower tracks where guys have time to come from the back and pass cars. Don't get me wrong, I get it, the Outlaw type speed and power is impressive, but I'd much rather watch guys trade slide jobs at 20mph slower than a 140 mph locked down freight train. Most people wouldn't care about a 2 second a lap speed difference if the racing was excellent. 

As for why SOD hasn't greatly increased car counts, last year was the first year of the rule. The fact that they didn't lose car count after a major rule change in Michigan is quite positive. This year, I believe the count may improve. Time will tell. They have a decent pay structure and a better than average contingency program. 

Bottom line, racers are their own worst enemy. We always spend as much as we can and look out for ourselves without regard for the fans. In order to keep from eating ourselves alive, we need to cut engine costs and a SOD type tire rule is a great option. 

P.s.

I loved the last Goodyear tires. They lasted forever and good used ones were always readily available.

I just came across this thread, so I apologize for being late to the party. I didn't plan on posting, but I see I've been mentioned a few times and I almost feel obligated. First off, I don't believe I know who Cubic is, nor do I keep track of everything he says on here. On this topic of increasing car count though, I have to agree with him. The SOD tire rule would definitely create an environment that would be beneficial to car owners as it pertains to engine costs. Which, I believe is the biggest factor in the dwindling car count. That's the whole reason the other divisions started in the first place, right?. To lower engine costs. I don't believe $15,000 for a top 305 and $40,000 for a 360 make sense as a cost saver anymore. They are just different classes where many times the bigger engines wins. If you want to win, you basically have to have an engine builder build you a killer. Car setup and driver skill matters less and less. Before I get flamed for just being a keyboard cowboy, I do have a fair amount of experience. I'm not a household name like Donny, but I have raced Sprints for over 25 years and have run a season  with the all stars, won a couple races at Attica over guys like Shaffer and Kemenah and won last years SOD championship. Most of the  races I've won have been on dry slick race tracks where the speed is slower. Which makes sense, since I still use a -12 motor that Davey Brown originally built in 1997. I'm able to freshen it each year for less than $6000 and I get 25-30 races out of it. That, by the way, keeps the 410 car count up because I'm just a working man who can afford to keep racing. I think many of the 305/360 guys would switch to 410's if they could compete for wins at  a much lower cost, and a smart tire rule would do that. 

 I don't believe that good racing comes from strictly from the highest speeds. As a matter of fact, I believe the best races happen on slicker slower tracks where guys have time to come from the back and pass cars. Don't get me wrong, I get it, the Outlaw type speed and power is impressive, but I'd much rather watch guys trade slide jobs at 20mph slower than a 140 mph locked down freight train. Most people wouldn't care about a 2 second a lap speed difference if the racing was excellent. 

As for why SOD hasn't greatly increased car counts, last year was the first year of the rule. The fact that they didn't lose car count after a major rule change in Michigan is quite positive. This year, I believe the count may improve. Time will tell. They have a decent pay structure and a better than average contingency program. 

Bottom line, racers are their own worst enemy. We always spend as much as we can and look out for ourselves without regard for the fans. In order to keep from eating ourselves alive, we need to cut engine costs and a SOD type tire rule is a great option. 

P.s.

I loved the last Goodyear tires. They lasted forever and good used ones were always readily available.

Thanks much for your insight brian.  I'm surprised this board didn't crash after a such reasonable, honest post

A 1997 Davey Brown -12 motor  - that's just music to my ears. 

I don't wear the T shirts anymore but I'd buy yours. Thank you for making it work!

You clowns seem to forget fans just want to see the best drivers. Right now they are spread throughout a bunch of limited, mini, micro and outlaw kart ranks because of the cost. There are a lot of Donny Schatz's lost throughout there that their Dad's don't own half of ND. The rich kid age has been upon us for a long time in the 410s. It used to not be that way. Karl Kinser could make ends meet for a long time on winnings alone. When that ended so did blue collar sprint car racing. Now you have corporate sprint car racing instead. You cannot tell the difference with the unlimited engine SOD on the 13". If all the best drivers were in them fans would be out in droves. It is also a lot easier to make cheap unlimited horsepower for the big half miles. 950 hp out of a 410 is like wiping your ass with hundred dollar bills. Common sense is a terrible thing to waste, but tens of thousands are even worse.