Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Not only a great example, but it's funny that there's no name attached to the add!

It did say to contact Calvin Landis in Knoxville Iowa. Looks like someone changed the add very recently.

Here's a copy of the add in case it disappears completely:

ASCS Heads that have been opened up for open races only. Not ASCS legal. Includes valves, springs & guides. Hilborn 2 7/16 Injection with up Nozzles & Stacks included. $2700.

www.Numbersusa.com  

How many other heads do you think guys are using that are illegal or in the gray area.

Head rules are hard to police. (unless the logo has been removed)

That is why I would favor a inlet(smaller stack restrictor) and outlet(header collector size) restriction rule.

Both of these could be checked prerace with out tearing the engine apart. If both of these rules were used with the spec head it wouldn't matter what you did to the head.

Those two rules would save the racer some money.

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When they disqualify someone for using a set of illegal heads the sanctioning body should confiscated the heads and destroy them.

What will happen is that they will get used again by someone else if they are not confiscated.

If the person will not relinquish the heads then you should not allow them to compete in anymore sanctioned events.

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Jeff, now we are confiscating heads that can be used legally in non-ASCS events! This is getting funny. First we single out an ad selling open heads that can be used legally at venues across the country (and there are 100s of these items out there) in open competition, and now we are confiscating motor parts that are not cheap. Let's look at how narrow-minded this is...

If this post isn't results, stories or something c
constructive, it isn't me! 
@BillWMedia
www.OpenWheel101.com

Read what I said again.

"When they disqualify someone for using a set of illegal heads the sanctioning body should confiscated the heads "

I will reword this for you.
If someone is disqualified at a ASCS event for illegal heads then ASCS should confiscate the heads or not let the person race any of there events.

This is not unusual. Other racing sanctions do this. NASCAR, NHRA etc...
If you are caught with something illegal they take it.

If someone was caught with an illegal traction control device should they take it?
Traction contriol devices cost more then a set of heads.

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They never proved that Danny was running a traction control system...just because Davis Technologies was one of his sponsors...oops.

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

I think it's funny that this post started out as a crucifixion of Swenson for cheating; then it turned into ideas on how to cheat; now we're confiscating expensive parts. Are there not non-ASCS sanctioned events these heads could be legally run at?

Hey Bill, why would someone ruin a set of ascs heads for open competition when you could just go buy heads for the same money or less that would better suit the open competition needs? I'll tell you why. When you walk up and look at the motor it still says ASCS right there on the head. Most people would think that they are legal ascs heads. What better way to stay up in the points chase besides winning a lot of races? Finish near the top 5 every night, don't win, and nobody will know.

www.Numbersusa.com  

Hate to stomp on your fun, but Calvin has never run ASCS heads and has raced 410s only since 1993. I think it was wise to inform people that these weren't legal ASCS heads so buyers wouldn't just assume they were and break the rules, don't you? He doesn't condone cheating and will not help anybody else do it either

Thanks, Beth

Jeff, it reads the same this time, and I still disagree 100%. I agree with the "not let the person race their events". You are getting closer.

Where else would those NASCAR and NHRA guys run their stuff? In sprint car races the rules are varied to say the least. You're talking apples and oranges. What is illegal with ASCS is winning on a weekly basis legally in other places. There's the difference. Are their organizations where traction control is allowed. If so, I would say no on taking it...

If this post isn't results, stories or something c
constructive, it isn't me! 
@BillWMedia
www.OpenWheel101.com

I think gdude nailed it right on the head.

quote from gdude
"Hey Bill, why would someone ruin a set of ascs heads for open competition when you could just go buy heads for the same money or less that would better suit the open competition needs? I'll tell you why. When you walk up and look at the motor it still says ASCS right there on the head."

There is no reason to remove the logo's on the ASCS heads unless you plan to run ASCS with illegal heads. This head would be a bad choice to run against a open head 360.

I am not talking apples and oranges you just don't understand.

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Im too lazy to look it up....what specs are these heads limited to? Runner size? Valve size/angle?? Is there a compression limit?

Bill, I respectfully disagree.  I understand that these motor parts may be legal at other events.  They would certainly be legal in a 410 race for sure.  But Swenson CHOSE to run them at an ASCS event knowing they were illegal.  I think any series or track has every right and in fact SHOULD confiscate illegal parts.  The fact that they would be legal somewhere else means nothing.  If you run illegal parts you are knowingly cheating the guys were are running legal.  Obviously the penalty for getting caught wasn't enough to keep Swenson from trying it again so it needs to be more severe.  If guys knew they could lose their parts they might think harder about trying it.

There's way more cheating in 360s than many might want to believe.  Gdude hit the nail.  Guys are using these illegal heads to take money from guys who DO play by the rules.  I wonder how many races Swenson has run over the past 5 years using illegal heads.  Don't you think all the guys who finished behind him who were running legal would like to see them gone.  BigDog has the right idea.  It's too hard to tech the current ASCS head rule.  We need something else that's easy to tech that would keep the playing field level and the cost down.  Smaller restrictors, valve spring pressure, compression, whatever it is, you have to be able to check it without tearing a motor down.  No one really wants to do that.  By making it easier to tech, more techs would be done and the number of cheaters would go down dramatically.  I would venture a guess that you might even see some different guys enjoying a little more success.

Why in the world would someone want to use A.S.C.S. heads on an open 360 motor?

They have 215cc (max.) intake runners, 23deg. valve angle, and don't flow well. World or Dart iron

heads have larger intake runners in there oval track applications and flow better, and they are cast iron.

There are much better aluminium heads on the market for open 360's.

The A.S.C.S. head is a spec. head and was meant to be run that way but like any spec. part someone will find a way to cheat them. Then there has to be more rules then someone else will

find a way to cheat the new rules it is the nature of the sport.

I agree with big dog they should take the illegal parts and destroy them.

Now we have a new tool to check the A.S.C.S. heads with. I have talked with a few engine builders and it seems this new tool finds some of the heads non compliant out of the box so this could get interesting.

The heads are 11X heads and can be sold and used on MANY different types of race cars. Not just on dirt ovals. I have sold 23 degree heads that flowed far worse and got good $$ for them from a drag racer. Many drag racer's also love the hilborn injections.

Bill W. is right, they are legal elsewhere and a budget guy would sure as hell use them in an open 360 if he got a good deal. Confiscating parts is not the answer. Enforcing the rules with penalties severe enough to make a difference is.

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that they are legal somewhere. The problem is when you run them at a ASCS Sanctioned race.

If you are going to have a rules then you have to enforce the rules.

You have to have rules that can be checked before the race. If you check after the race it is too late.
Example.
They take the top 4 out of a heat race for the A. The person that is cheating gets 1st - 4th. So the 5th place finisher gets to run the B. After the race you can not go back and change the fact that the 5th place finisher got screwed because they should of started the A not the B.

There are cheaper heads that would suite a open 360 far better then a ASCS head. If someone was going to use them on a open 360 motor only then they would remove the ASCS logo that is on the outside of the head.
If they leave it on there then they are planning on using it at ASCS events.

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not sure there is a general interest among drivers, promoters, or engine builders to save money in that fashion. Yes I am being sarcastic. But I'm not sure we'll ever see the price of it all go down......probably go up if anything. For every driver who wants to take steps to lower the cost of racing.........you'll see 10 more who have the pockets want to use those pockets to help them win. But JMO

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

I'm not an engine builder but, if you choke down the injectors would it make a difference if the heads were ported? Couldn't you use the smaller injectors like a restrictor plate?

Here is another example why you should do the tech inspection before the race even starts.

Swenson finished second in the second heat race. Looks like they took 5 to the A. Since Swenson was running illegal 1b-Brett Geldner should of went to the A. Instead 1b-Brett Geldner went to the B and finished 14th.

ASCS Northern Plains Region Results from Jackson Speedway:

First Heat (8 laps): 1. 7-Chad Meyer, 2. 18-Russell Wiese, 3. 4J-Lee Grosz, 4. 87-Curt Lund, 5. 92-Mike Sitzmann, Jr., 6. 75c-Casey Heser, 7. 5T-Mark Toews, 8. 0x-Brandon Mills.

Second Heat (8 Laps): 1. 1-Shane Stewart, 2. X-Chuck Swenson, 3. 94s-Natalie Sather, 4. 99-Shawn Van Wyhe, 5. 20G-Chris Graf, 6. 1b-Brett Geldner, 7. 2D-Bryan Dobesh, 8. 1HD-Jake Leighty.

Third Heat (8 Laps): 1. 11x-Gregg Bakker, 2. 05-Bill Boles, 3. 24-Jesse Drost, 4. 40-Clint Garner, 5. 75-Brandon Geldner, 6. 1W-Mitch Runge, 7. 22-Nick Lusk. DNS: 18H-Tony Hargrave.

Fourth Heat (8 Laps): 1. R19-Scott Winters, 2. 5x-Dave Glennon, 3. 27-Brian Brown, 4. 62-Jerry Richert, Jr., 5. 99V-Gordy Vogelaar, 6. 20-Eric Lutz, 7. 15-Joe Riedel, 8. 11m-Troy Meyer.

Pole Dash (5 Laps): 1. X-Chuck Swenson, 2. R19-Scott Winters, 3. 7-Chad Meyer, 4. 1-Shane Stewart, 5. 11x-Gregg Bakker, 6. 05-Bill Boles.

B Feature (12 Laps): 1. 99V-Gordy Vogelaar, 2. 75c-Casey Heser, 3. 2D-Bryan Dobesh, 4. 92-Mike Sitzmann, Jr., 5. 5T-Mark Toews, 6. 75-Brandon Geldner, 7. 11m-Troy Meyer, 8. 20-Eric Lutz, 9. 1W-Mitch Runge, 10. 15-Joe Riedel, 11. 1HD-Jake Leighty, 12. 22-Nick Lusk, 13. 0x-Brandon Mills, 14. 1b-Brett Geldner. DNS: 62-Jerry Richert, Jr., 18H-Tony Hargrave.

A Feature (25 laps): 1. 11x-Gregg Bakker, 2. R19-Scott Winters, 3. 5x-Dave Glennon, 4. 27-Brian Brown, 5. 1-Shane Stewart, 6. 7-Chad Meyer, 7. 24-Jesse Drost, 8. 40-Clint Garner, 9. 94s-Natalie Sather, 10. 4J-Lee Grosz, 11. 99V-Gordy Vogelaar, 12. 05-Bill Boles, 13. 99-Shawn Van Wyhe, 14. 2D-Bryan Dobesh, 15. 18-Russell Wiese, 16. 87-Curt Lund, 17. 20G-Chris Graf, 18. 75c-Casey Heser, 19. 92-Mike Sitzmann Jr. Disqualified: X-Chuck Swenson.

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