Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

In my opinion yes it was! We didn't have hardly any 2 or 3 wide racing on a track that slick all year until that night! Wish more tracks would run wingless 305's!

vERY GOOD VIDEO.  nO REASONABLE PERSON COULD SAY THESE CARS ARE SLOW AND BORING.  AT KNOXVILLE WITH WING THE  305 cars are about same speed as lucas late models.  I do not in any case wing or non wig on any size track think the 305 are not OK  .  The first chevy V8 sprint cars never made near the HP as 305 do today and they made guys like P. Jones and Foyt hero,s.  

This is the way 360 started in Iowa. Steel heads and all, then one person decided they would have a engine place hand port heads and all and the door was wide open for high cost engines.  Then ASCS came in and basically let a $2,000 pair of heads be modified to costs of $6,000 to $8,000 per pair.  If everyone still had the $2,000 pair of heads there would be 50% or more cars.  I do not understand ASCS at all.  Next in line is everyone will think they need carbon fiber bodies.  Why can they not just outlaw them?

The Racesaver rules are nation-wide and are supported in all venues that they run. Not just the motors, the whole package! Tech is the same in Pennsylvania or California.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Correct, but if 305's are going to take over the world, that world starts and ends at Knoxville. You can't judge success of the "future of sprint car racing" on the time differential on a shorttrack.

Member of this message board since 1997

And hopefully Knoxville WILL join up, but they are NOT the only track in the country.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Talk to J Kinder about running a 305 @ Knoxville. Put in new valve springs, run one week, shim 'em and run another week....Wash, rinse and repeat.... Run a wet sump and pump the pan dry on the straights and roast a motor because it can't drain back to the pan fast enough.....

Doesn't sound to economical on anything bigger than a 1/4 mile....

Member of this message board since 1997

If a 305 class came along that popped off the wings weekly around here I would send my wings to the aluminum recycler and never run the damn things again. That was an awesome video and it looked like it was a whole lot of fun for everyone involved. Then again I prefer wingless racing, so I am biased. 

Never hit stationary objects!

The 305's actually put on a better show in my opinion than the 360's.  The 360's pretty well get spread out and follow the leader, the 305's tend to have groups of racing throughout the pack.  You get the $20k motors up front, the $10k motors running in the middle, the $7k motors fighting for last.  I don't think most fans who attend weekly racing are looking for the big names or low lap times.  I think they're just looking for good hard racing.  Take the mods for instance....more fans show up to watch the Sport Mods and the Mods nowadays and it's obvious the mods are higher hp and faster.  The Sport Mods put on the better show though....

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think taking the wings off is the solution.  Too many guys are getting into the 305's that have never raced any type of sprint car.  I think that will equate to a bunch of torn up stuff.  Most of these guys struggle with wings....much less without.

I think IMCA had the right thing back in the 90's.  Small wings and rock hard tires.  It didn't matter how big and bad your motor was, you weren't going to hook it up.  And every track around here had good car counts.  Most guys were running IMCA claimer motors and the fans didn't know the difference.  I think if you leave the big wings on (for stability of the car) and then put the old IMCA bricks on them, all is well.  In my opinion, the only reason that deal died around here was because of the closure of a track (not due to lack of income - owner passed away and eventually was lost to the city).  I think if that track were open today, the hockey pucks would still be in use.  This particular track had such a following, other track survived off the defects from it and therefore adopted their rules.  Tires are they key....unhook them and motor won't matter!

JMO anyway.....

Knoxville does NOT run the IMCA Racesaver engines! They are a totally different animal all together.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

the boyd video demonstrates good racing for short track 305s, perhaps this should be the model for rules and track size?

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

Same issues though....the first set of springs we used up in 3 nights.  Second set lasted 4 nights, third set lasted 6 nights (we had issues and didn't finish a few races).  Contrary to popular belief, these motors WILL twist 8100-8200 and the springs just won't hold up.  Before everyone starts jumping on here talking about a legal 305 won't turn those kind of rpm's, THEY WILL.  French himself inspected ours in Nebraska, everything was perfectly fine and we twist ours above 8k regularly.  With those kind of rpm's come better cranks, better rods, lighter pistons, lighter lifters, more expensive rockers and so on.  This is why they're not $7,500 motors anymore.

Rock hard tires could take all that away but then the tire kick backs to tracks, sanctions, and series wouldn't be as good.  Less tire sales equal less padded pockets.

I think the Nebraska deal really helped open French's eyes to just what the 305's are capable of.  He argued with me for an hour claiming these motors wouldn't turn the rpm I kept telling him they would.  He finally saw with his own eyes which was good for the man writing the rules.  From what I hear, an aftermarket block is now going to be allowed too, which is going to add some to the costs.  The 305's just aren't affordable racing like everyone makes it out to be.  Maybe they would be if the payouts were equal to a 360 payout but these rediculous payouts just add to the joke that the 305's are becoming.

I say, NO motor rules other than steel blocks are required, put the hard AR IMCA RR and hard AR IMCA LR on them, 1575lb weight rule and let them go.  Then a guy with a 305 will be just as fast as a 434.  That would open up the sprint car world tremendously.  Then, every guy with a modified or sport mod would already own a motor, every guy with a sprint car would already own a motor and everyone could race together.  Wishful thinking though I guess.

Funny how 2 out of the last 3 305 track champions at Knoxville have all been wet sump motors. Now how is that possible if they are "roasting" them because its a wet sump? I will agree with you that a dry sump is ideal, but it is obviously not necessary. And I would buy some better springs if you are only getting one race out of them before shimming. There is no rule at Knoxville in the 305's that limits the valve spring. So spend some money on some good ones and they will last the year.

Spend more on springs??  I thought the Knoxville cars were already spending too much money??  Unless you run a roller cam they don't make a "good" spring.  Some of the sets we get make it 3-4 races, we have had some that went bad night 1.  You can turn less RPM and make them last, but we are doing fine with what we have, WE(my team) aren't complaining about it.  It is frustrating they don't last very long, but we do what we have to do to be competitive.  As for the wet sump, we (my team) can't get them to last.  I am certain that has to do with the RPM thing again, but the dry sump works fine to fix the problem.  I am wondering why there are so many people wanting to change the rules in a class they don't support?  If all the people who say this and that needs changed actually owned a 305, the class would already have taken over the country.  I run a 305 at Knoxville, we enjoy it more than anything we have done in the past.  I am fine with the rules the way they are, as does the majority of the car owners that run there.  We don't have $20K in our motor, could build 2 for that and have money left over actually...There is more to racing than a high dollar motor, it helps, but that isn't the only factor.  If you don't support the 305 class, then don't watch them.  Go to the concession stand, restroom, or go stretch while we are racing.  But don't put us down for doing something WE enjoy. 

I wasn't going to post on this because everything on here lately has turned into a bashfest/namecalling waste of time.  But since I was brought up in the topic (thanks Hawker, LOL) I thought I would weigh in with the FACTS of OUR team.  I am sure there are some that disagree with every single thing I said, and that's ok, my family and I do not spend our money to race just to satisfy others.  We race because we love sprintcar racing.  I am thankful for every fan that comes to the track, if it wasn't for fans, we wouldn't have tracks to race at.  But in the end, I don't know a single driver or owner that does this 100% for the fans.  We do it because it is what we love to do, and hopefully we put on a good show for all the fans to enjoy also!!

I hope I didn't offend anyone, that was not my intentions.  I just thought I would share my thoughts on what was mentioned and hopefully no one takes anything the wrong way.  We all should be happy we have ANY class of sprintcars to watch/race. 

88 sprint....no one should be offended by anything you said in your post. Some people just look for the negative in any, and every, situation whent it doesn't meet THEIR desires. Truth of the matter is, I helped found the MSCA (Mid-south Sprint Car Assn.) here in the Memphis, TN area. We are a 305 sprint organization. At Riverside and I-30 Speedway, depending upon track conditions, our cars are within 3-4 tenths of the 360 times (and actually faster than a few of them). While our rules allow the RaceSaver (and ASCS) legal cars to run with us, our rules are slightly different, allowing 200 cc runner cast iron heads, 2 3/16" injectors, and NO cam lift rule, but still has to be solid flat tappet. Most of the motors are in the 500hp range (which ironically, isn't much different that a good RaceSaver engine). We have to weigh 1500 lbs, which is slightly heavier than the 360s, BUT here's the deal...both I-30 and Riverside are 1/4 mile bull ring type tracks. That plays into our favor for being nearly as quick as the 360s and providing great racing. Good motors can be built for LESS than $10,000 and last all year without a freshen up (save for valve springs) Can you spend more building a motor? Sure you can. And, I should just go ahead and say...I'm in the valve train business...I work with several of the engine builders that have been mentioned previously in this thread. R&D isn't free, but if trying 3 different lobe separations, or 2 different rocker ratios, or moving the cam around in the motor for a full day on the dyno determining where it provides the best torque, or preferred peak HP # for a given RPM, etc....that's what some of these guys are doing for their customers. No different than any reputable 360 or 410 engine builder would do to fine tune their package. Keep in mind, the "ingredients" may be slightly different, but the end result is the same....the MOST HP and TORQUE available, with the best drivability, and DURABILITY. When you're painted into a corner based on the limits of the rules, finding a 'whisker' of power here or there, becomes much more difficult and hence, more expensive. Think of it this way....when you're dealing with a 500HP package, and extra 20 HP or LB/FT of torque is MUCH more valuable than if you're dealing with a 700+HP package....and hence, becomes harder (and more expensive) to find. I don't care if you're racing marbles down a driveway, someone is going to figure out a way to make their marble faster, whether it be in the weight, the surface, the rolling resistance, etc....racing ain't cheap. BUT...for those who want to race sprint cars, the 305 organizations are doing what we can to make it more affordable for many to realize their dream, and hence, continue to GROW the sport we all love.  

VERY classy response. I'll buy one of your t-shirts next year. In fact, I'll just give you $20 whether you have a t-shirt or not. I don't need another one anyway, but all 305 racers could use an extra 20.

I rarely post on here but people talking about how slow 305's need to look at the lap times on this sight.

http://races.computermaninc.net

He has lap times from Fremont and Attica, and by the end of the night they are very close.  Sometimes the 305's are faster.  They're not Racesaver, but 305's nonetheless.

No offense but if u haven't seen this phenomenon before im surprised. September in Jacksonville il micros were running faster times than the 410s. Its the same theory as pulling off a plug wire when its black!  Less power faster car. That doesn't mean I want to see those other cars when its a tacky crank twisting track! By the way at feature time the 305s were as gd as the 410s. Its a 1/4 mile bullring!  

Heh....Sorry I drug you into this. I only used you as an example because I trust your judgement and the discussions we have had over this allowed me to shed some light on the subject as I know you don't like to jump into these pissing matches. You have always gotten more out of less than anyone I saw racing around the Missouri area when I was living there, so I know that what you say is no BS. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but my comment on burning down motors for oil starvation was from when you guys originally took a dry ump motor to Knoxville? I didn't realize there were also issues with the wet sump too. BTW, J is a damn good, clean racer that's easy on equipment, someone needing to fill a seat should give him a call. 

Member of this message board since 1997

88 I enjoy watch 305's in knoxville as you guys put on a great show. Will also travel around southern iowa to catch a 305 sprint car races. Love going to Burlington to watch those guys run a smaller track seems like any night someone different can win.  Nice to see my ex brother in-law still running in Burlington. Go Gary Bonar, one of these days I'm going to take him up on driving his nostalgia 305 some night.