Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I'm gonna try to be back East in time for Weikert Memorial at the Port, hitting some races in Indiana & Ohio on the way. If they can't draw a good car count for $10,000 on a Sunday, there is a serious problem....

How 'bout this theory?: racing participation as a spectator, car owner, driver evolves from a passion for cars.With less of the latter, there's less of the former.

Back in the day in my little hamlet, there were many car guys around town doing something to their car every night - if nothing other than leaning on it over a few beers. Some of those same guys are still around and still puttering, but no one has taken the place of those who have dropped out. What was maybe 20-30 hot rodders and buddies, might be 5 today - certainly not more than 10.

That target demographic just isn't into cars and racing like it was a generation ago.

And, I still like the big tracks. I'm not going to say they have the best racing- hell, I'm just going to admit that they don't -  but I still like them. The power and speed.......

And to think this whole thing kept going because couple of guys were surprised that there was a low car count for the first race in March when several teams don't start until april every year. Believe it or not some guys can't race from Feb. until Nov. I would bet if you put the effort into it you would find a thread on here about Port no having many cars the first race a lot of years. For the Weikert Memorial there wont't be fifty there then either but it will be a Quality field.

Please respond Cubic, I want to hear you get owned some more LOL !

Longtime Mitch fan, I swear you love nothing more than predicting the end of 410 racing to in Pa, Port will be fine and so will WG. 

Fixxer, usually I agree with your posts, to say that Port only cares about Late Models is a bit far fetched don't you think, what exactly would you suggest they do to get more Sprints to race there? I mean I guess they could shorten the track to make it easier on motors and equipment but what else can they do? Did you check the 34 cars at Lincoln this past week, they had about the same amount of cars capable of running up front that Port did and three times the field fillers. We need rookies and field fillers as they are the future of the sport but they don't necessarily make for a better night of racing, plus 10 of those cars did not qualify and were in the trailer watching the feature not racing, so they had 8 more cars start the feature, and only 18 finished, whoopee! I love Lincoln too, but it has nothing to do with car counts, it's just an awesome track.

Unlike the rest of you I have faith in the passion of Pa fans and racers, Port, Williamsgrove and the rest will be fine, too much history and passion to let these places turn into housing complexes. 

As someone eluded to earlier, the problem in Pa isn't a lack of teams and drivers, it's the super sportsman, 305's, 358's, 360's, and 410's. We have 5 freaking different Sprintcar classes.  If we could get rid of the super sportsman and 358 divisions those drivers would not quit racing, they would race in one of the 3 classes available like the rest of the world. Can you imagine the car counts we would have if all the SS and 358's were divided among the other 3 classes?  Sorry to those who love the SS and 358's but it only makes sense to drop the 2 classes that don't  exist outside of Posse land. 

Let the bashing began!

When was the last Saturday in March a February date?  Most of racer race from March until the beginning of October normally the National Open at Williamsgrove....again that is not November.  You can make all the excuses you want,  on a regular night they will be lucky to have 22 cars,  if no one has engine trouble the week before.  For the Weikert you may have two Lincoln cars there....Deitrich & Wolfe. 

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Sorry to hit a little close to home with the blow hard comment...lol. But the simple fact still remains that you are wrong. When Hoosier took over from Goodyear in 2013 they were instantly a couple of tenths quicker. And it wasn't only their RRs, it was their higher growth LRs. Then they tried the RD tires again around here that were softer than an old D10 and wouldn't even last a feature. And now they have big wickerbills and the Outlaws have a qualifying motor format. 1000 hp is coming quick and they are a lot more expensive again than under Goodyear's tenure. -12s even at places like Lincoln here in Central PA are finally gone for good if you want to win consistently. Not with the Goodyears.

And looking at the bigger picture the late models aren't on 88"X11" tires because they are faster. Neither is Sprints on Dirt on 100"x13".

If sprint cars went to SOD tires and a 23 degree wing angle rule like Brad Doty wants (and the wing has to be in front of the rear axle) there wouldn't be 410s. The Outlaws and ASCS would both be unlimited, they would be both cheaper and harder to drive, the sport wouldn't be segregated into 410s/360s/305s, fans would get to watch "unlimited" sprint cars again and both your boys would have solid rides for the rest of their careers.

I realize it will never happen because there are too many people like you with pull in the sport. Common sense still trumps bullshit though. Just tell the truth that you would rather have the hp and money advantage because you had to earn all the sponsorship by building a career. Not that you really think the sport is better the way it is with only a couple hundred race teams affording 410s and most of them with multiple major sponsors. Not like before when garages and small businesses could run their own race cars by themselves. Now it takes a "team" of sponsors and the racing is worse, because they are so aero dependent because of all the speed that money can buy because the tires are too hooked up.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

      OK, so you can't answer the question because you don't know. We get that. And now you want the whole sprint car world to change to conform to your idea of fixing everthing you think is wrong. How precious.

Precious, No one is ever going to understand your jibberish. We get that.

He picked a fight with me. Not the other way around. I don't agree with what he has to say about rules on Wing Nation or other interviews in the past either. It doesn't really matter though because I am talking about SODs Hoosier tire rule, Doty's wing angle rule, what Goodyear tried to do, etc. It has little to do with me.

Goodyear: "STIFFER construction in order to achieve objectives of REDUCING TRACTION"

Hoosier: Same spec tire as they had the 3 years before Goodyear just narrower so it could roll over easier.

http://www.woosprint.com/news/feature-stories/680-goodyear-to-become-official-tire-of-world-of-outlaws-sprint-car-series

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

It appears you understood it. Terry's credentials suggest he would have a little more experience with tires, rules, etc. than most other folks on racing message boards.

Imagine that. A Hall of Famer who has owned sprint cars, and driven them to countless wins all over the country schooling a keyboard commando who has years of experience copying and pasting shit on a message board with facts based upon actual experience.....

Tires in all the major classes of dirt racing have changed. They have gone from chemical comp in the rubber to sidewall flex to sizing. What no one seems to consider in these factors is the difference's in the actuall dirt you race on. That alone requires adjustments in chassis set up and tire choice. I think that the RR used at knoxville and the same tire at WG need 2 totally different approaches because of the racing surface itself. One of Goodyear's issues were guys were getting tires others could not. It's good to see someone with Terry vast exp. chime in on something that few, including me, have a in depth knowledge of first hand like he has thru his expierences.

I had to create an account and comment on this post because the part about getting rid of divisions is spot on. Not only do I think many of the problems facing Sprints in PA would improve, but I think it would help the tracks as well. Suddenly Trail Way becomes a better option on Friday night because they are running 360s (To the average fan they look just like a 410, and on Trail Way they are about as fast. In addition, there are some top shelf guys that often run 360s over 410s such as Stutts, and Smith). I don't find the Super Sportsman extremely entertaining, they are still good racing but I prefer the 305s to them personally. Susquehanna could run LLM, and 305s as co-headliners and charge $10 admission and I think they would benefit from increased attendance (making them a more attractive option than they are now compared to Lincoln or Port Royal). I think the 360s could be a great #2 division in Central PA if more tracks would embrace them. I don't really see a point to the 358s over the 360s anyway.

Racers have no business coming up with rules. It has been proven over and over again just like this instance. It has to come from a strong organization or group of tracks that actually want to see car counts go up. This thread was about low car counts. Racers give no viable solutions, only bullshit and misdirection. As usual they have zero long view even if it would end up putting more money in their pockets. They fight every rule, weight, tires, wings, etc. Racers are a huge part of the problem, not the solution. The car count issue is never going to be resolved until a small business or garage can fund a sprint car again. It is simple economics. Sprint Cars are in the remarkable position that they are light enough it can easily be solved with something like a SOD tire rule and a Doty wing angle rule. It will never happen though because of the exact bullshit witnessed on this thread.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Wolfie, hmmm...that's an interesting theory and I think there is some definitive credence to it.  Heck, my father was a car guy his whole life and it became his life's work - a mechanic, which he still is today. That's how he got into sprint car racing and how I in turn got into it.  You're right there's less of a "car guys" demo these days. 

To counter your theory though, there is a greater insurgence of "action sports" nowadays for kids and younger demos.  While you may say (and be correct) this could potentially take away eyes from sprint car racing (more accessible and "passive" action sports available) it also points to the failure of the sport to market itself in this realm.  There's a parellel between your BMX, Skateboard, Dirtbike, Motorsports, heck even X Games type demographic and sprint car racing demographic.  If you take a 20 something kid that loves X Games he or she would probably have at least an interest in sprint car racing. Get him or her to the track and he or she would be hooked.  From a demographic standpoint there are parallels there, we just need to hit that demo better...and I don't have the answer as to how unfortunately.    

You don't have car guys anymore because guys can't work on their own car anymore. A guy may be able to build his own race car even build his own engine but cars  have evolved (intentionally by car builders) to the point where he can't work on his  family car.

Some truth to that as well, especially with German cars and the like not even having a dipstick anymore. Car manufacturers are intentionally making it hard on us as well...also your neighborhood mechanic. New proprietary tech and such are making it harder for neighborhood ASE certified mechanics to work on cars...or make it affordable to have all the necessary tools and components of ever evolving tech.  Brake jobs and oil changes don't have a high enough profit margin because the labor hours involved are low.  

Car Counts will be debated forever.

I remember in the days before 360's (late 1970's, early 1980's) and 305's (2009ish) at Knoxville, probably had around 40 cars are so (never had a C-main that I ever remember) before the 360's.  When they came along car count for 410's stayed about the same, but new teams came in for the 360's.  A couple owners (in both classes) would dry up every year or so and some were replaced, some not.  305's were added and again, new car owners, not guys dropping down a class unless their original plan was to close up shop completely.  We now see 1 or 2 teams from 305's move up a class or two almost yearly.

From an experience standpoint, having these feeder classes is not a bad thing, if anything its' good as by the time they hit the premier class (410's), they know how to drive and we fans in the stands don't see a myriad of caution flags in the premier division.  And for the most part, we don't see a myriad of caution flags in any division.

Will car counts continue to dwindle yearly?  Probably, but it has nothing to do with how many different segments of sprint cars we have, most owners of the 305's don't seem to want to move up to 410's,they are there to have fun, it's a hobby.  Many of the 360 teams do it because it's fun as 410 racing has become a business and not as much fun to them anymore (Clint Garner alluded to this a couple years ago).

As far as the Cubic vs. Terry McCarl thing above in this thread goes.  I'll side with Terry on this one (and Terry will attest that I have disagreed with him on this board many a time in the past), I've never owned or driven one, so unless you have I don't feel your opinion on tires or rules really matter. 

Only those guys behind the wheel know what a rule change does to the stability or drivability of the cars.  Teams should have some input on the rules (it's their $$$), but if done right, the rulemakers don't just use that input, they use input from the teams, manufacturers, fans, and sponsors.  It takes all those groups to make racing work (I'm sure Terry can tell you from a team owner standpoint and from a promotor standpoint how important all of those people are to racing).  You need everyone of those groups, not just one of those groups.

Tires are one part of the equation.  There are too many other parts and pieces (track prep, shocks, wing and wheel width changes, etc., etc.) to place all blame or all kudos on the tires for how good or perceived bad the racing is.  The facts are the Goodyears were junk (any fan in the stands could see that, I have never seen as many blown tires at Knoxville than I did during the Goodyear days and track prep sure wasn't making tires blow out during hotlaps) and Hoosier just makes a better dirt tire.  My guess is opening up the tire rule wouldn't have any effect, teams race on the tires they feel most comfortable on and for many years, that has been Hoosier.

As a fan, I only care if the racing is good.  So far, I can say the racing has been good in all divisions here in the Midwest for quite some time.  My guess is that will continue in 2017 with stout competition at Jackson, Knoxville, Huset's / Badlands, the IRA, and the WoO and ASCS events in the Midwest.

Good luck to ALL teams,  I know you don't hear it often enough, so THANK YOU for entertaining us fans (even guys like Cubic that think they know more about racing than Hall of Fame drivers do, at least he's passionate and we need more passionate fans, not less).

You are wrong when you say I like nothing more than predicting the demise of racing at Port and The Grove as other than Knoxville and Eldora they are my favorite tracks if you have been going to the races for five years its obvious there is a decline in the quality of racing let alone over 60 like iI have been going.

The other divisions are not the cause of the shorter feilds its like Hodnett and all the top drivers say its the lack of Quality owners if you dont own it you are lucky to have a ride.

More drivers have dropped down to 358 or 360 or spotsman than have moved up Chad Layton, Mark Smith,Kevin Nouse,Adrian Schaffer,Nate Snyder and Curt Micheal and Davey Sammons just to name a few and drivers like Erdley,Leppo and Cannon cant even find A RIDE.

And dont forger that Kauffman,Kreitz ,Rahmer,Shaffer,Stevie andHestor have retired.

Dewease,Ott,plus others will be special shows only.i

     Settle down there comrade. You sound like the politburo insisting that only they know the way the masses should be governed. What stronger sprint car organization than the WoO should these rules come from? If only they asked you to re-write the rules, everything would be perfect? I think you're giving yourself a little too much credit.

      Racers have no business coming up with rules????? What planet are you from? Racers are kind of a key component in the equation. They should have a lot of say in the rules. You want to take them out of the equation and dictate rules to them. Who will you blame then when the car counts are down?

     Have you considered starting your own sprint car sanction with your one-party rules? That would be the sure fire way to prove just how right you are and how wrong the whole rest of the world is.

For the country to go to the unlimited SOD rule package and Doty wing angle rule it would take the Outlaws, All Stars and premier race tracks to all agree to it at a summit at PRI. The top race teams would all be against it as usual. A majority of the couple thousand limited sprint operations across the country would be for it, if a 100"x13" RR tire and 23 degree wing angle rule enabled them to be competitive. Say you don't like it. Say you want them to go 150 mph, etc. But quit lying and saying it won't help car counts, which is the purpose of this thread. Sorry for putting a workable thought into 3 pages of mostly inconsequential jibberish and misdirection.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com