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Topic: Chuck Swenson Suspended from ASCS
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Page 3 of 5 of 82 replies
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August 25, 2007 at
09:32:06 AM
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Tech inspection at Cedar Lake involved checking the wings, tires and injector stacks only. We did not have the tool which allows us to check the intake runners without pulling the injection unit off at that time.
John McCoy from Knoxville is the one who came up with this tool and he showed it to us for the first time at the Knoxville 360 Nationals. We thought it was a great idea and since he had some extra material, he made (2) more that we will be using in ASCS competition.
The "X" team also have at least (3) engines at their disposal to utilize thru out the race season...CZ
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August 25, 2007 at
10:33:32 AM
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Just as a thought ..... is being "suspended" until Jan of 08 that big of penalty?? I mean it is certainly a slap on the butt ..... and he is out of the 07 title race, but the powers to be might have sat him down for a full calendar year and sent a no uncertain terms message to the X team and all the others out there that are not legal. I have always felt that a driver should not be branded a "cheater" for one infraction ... but Swenson's constant "errors" are not by accident and I will always think he is cheating if I see him racing anywhere in the future.
R.A.
S.H.S.
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August 25, 2007 at
06:49:43 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: azteca on August 25 2007 at 10:33:32 AM
Just as a thought ..... is being "suspended" until Jan of 08 that big of penalty?? I mean it is certainly a slap on the butt ..... and he is out of the 07 title race, but the powers to be might have sat him down for a full calendar year and sent a no uncertain terms message to the X team and all the others out there that are not legal. I have always felt that a driver should not be branded a "cheater" for one infraction ... but Swenson's constant "errors" are not by accident and I will always think he is cheating if I see him racing anywhere in the future.
R.A.
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I agree, this penalty is NOT ENOUGH.
He'll still collect part of the points fund, since his points weren't taken away.
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August 25, 2007 at
06:59:01 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: BigDog on August 24 2007 at 10:00:03 AM
There will always be cheating. It is just the nature of the sport.
Most racers will do what ever it takes to win and if that involves stretching the rules then that is what they do.
Remember you are not cheating until you get caught.
On most inspections they just go through the motions to make everyone think they are checking.
Some guys also get picked on harder then others.
I don't think you can blame the engine builder. In most cases they are only doing what the customer wants. Most engine builders are not getting rich building engines so if they want the job they have to do it. Sometimes the engine builder is just refreshing a engine and never had anything to do with the heads.
It's a dog eat dog world.
The more rules you have the more potential for problems you will have and the more it will cost the racer.
The spec head is a joke. It only cost the racer more money.
It only makes the promoter and cylinder head manufacturer money.
If they just limit the injector stack size(smaller then current size 2 3/16) and let them run any head then there would be a lot less hassle.
Make everyone run the same gear. Limit the RPM.
I also favor a cam lift rule.
This is taken from ASCS rules
"Spec Heads: Brodix heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. "
"Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type"
You can guarantee that every ASCS head that has been used does not meet the above requirements.
So what is actually a legal port job. When you buy the heads from Brodix they will do a legal port Job.
Sounds like to me that if you do anything to the port that you would be doing a performance-enhancing aleteration and that is illegal per ASCS rules.
http://www.ascsracing.com/ascsrules.asp
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"Remember you are not cheating until you get caught."
My sister's rapist wasn't caught. Do you want to try explaining to her that it wasn't rape? Or maybe to one of YOUR loved ones?
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August 25, 2007 at
11:49:57 PM
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You aren't allowed to "port" the heads at all Einstein. All but the first 1/2" of the intake is untouched and unpolished a monkey could see if they were altered. A set of heads cast in 1993 is the same set that is cast today. If you don't think that reduces cost, then you are obviously blind to the cost of keeping current heads on an engine.
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August 26, 2007 at
03:39:47 AM
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Cheating??? Who is to blame and who is the culprit. I have seen racers disqualified for being 2 pounds under minimum weight... and I have seen "fair haired drivers" (who I happen to really like) weigh in at 50 pounds light. They then decide that the scales are wrong and change the minimum weight requirements 50 pounds lighter.
They could go to a sealed engine rule and put the responsibilities on the engine builder. But then, as y'all have said, who knows where he might run an "illegal" engine. From what I understand most of the difference in "legal engines" is in the block... and cam.
Am I just being gullible.... still....???
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August 26, 2007 at
07:22:01 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sprntr on August 25 2007 at 06:59:01 PM
"Remember you are not cheating until you get caught."
My sister's rapist wasn't caught. Do you want to try explaining to her that it wasn't rape? Or maybe to one of YOUR loved ones?
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Who's talking about rape we are talking about cheating. You must be confused on the subject here.
Most of the time cheaters don't know they are cheating until they get caught because they misinterpret the rules or didn't know the rules.
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August 26, 2007 at
07:39:04 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sumthing4rockets on August 25 2007 at 11:49:57 PM
You aren't allowed to "port" the heads at all Einstein. All but the first 1/2" of the intake is untouched and unpolished a monkey could see if they were altered. A set of heads cast in 1993 is the same set that is cast today. If you don't think that reduces cost, then you are obviously blind to the cost of keeping current heads on an engine.
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We'll it's obvious that you don't know much about head porting or heads in general. All heads are not cast the same and if you think that a head that was cast in 1993 is the same today then you are crazy. Yea they can try to make them all the same but in reality some will flow better then others. The only way they could guarantee the same port dimensions in every head is by cnc porting the heads.
You say that a monkey could see if they were altered. You must not know about acid porting or shot penning.
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August 26, 2007 at
02:38:18 PM
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The heads are cast using identical process as 15 yrs. ago. If you are wanting to split hairs you cannot guarentee the same port dimensions using cnc either without taking into consideration tool wear and temperature diffferences. If you can't tell rough castings from ones that have been shot peenned or acid ported you need glasses.
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August 29, 2007 at
10:41:10 PM
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I've been curious about this story, since only the initial announcement was posted on my regular forum site. So far, this is the only site I've found with any discussion on the matter.
I may be mistaken (if so, please set me straight), but as I understand the ASCS rules it's not a sealed engine. Could the engine have been legal as delivered by Fisher, and Swenson did his own (and illegal) modifications?
Just a thought...
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August 29, 2007 at
10:52:29 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: BigDog on August 26 2007 at 07:39:04 AM
We'll it's obvious that you don't know much about head porting or heads in general. All heads are not cast the same and if you think that a head that was cast in 1993 is the same today then you are crazy. Yea they can try to make them all the same but in reality some will flow better then others. The only way they could guarantee the same port dimensions in every head is by cnc porting the heads.
You say that a monkey could see if they were altered. You must not know about acid porting or shot penning.
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no BS there man.......that acid porting them zabrinsky's do is some amazing stuff. You can have that done and have the porous feel put back on it and no (including the GENIUSES of ascs) would ever know about it.
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a
wouldchuck could chuck would
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August 30, 2007 at
08:13:07 AM
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I wonder how many of these guys have actually seen the inside of an ASCS head?
BTW, I was the ASCS official who DQ'd the X car at Jackson.
I'm sure the Zabrinsky's do amazing stuff but I doubt that even they can "acid port" the ASCS logo back into the intake runners after they have been completely ground off, GENIUS...CZ
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August 30, 2007 at
08:30:03 AM
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Let people acid etch and sandblast as much as they want. The intake runners on an ASCS head can't measure more than 215 cc's. If it is questionable at all, all they have to do iss cc an intake runner and that will tell you if it's been acid etched or sandblasted.
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August 30, 2007 at
08:45:48 AM
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This message was edited on
August 30, 2007 at
08:51:08 AM by OKCFan12
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on August 30 2007 at 08:30:03 AM
Let people acid etch and sandblast as much as they want. The intake runners on an ASCS head can't measure more than 215 cc's. If it is questionable at all, all they have to do iss cc an intake runner and that will tell you if it's been acid etched or sandblasted.
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dag-gummit Kelly. If I actually knew that much about motors I would be building em. lol. Some fellas that ran stock cars at the fairgrounds were tellin me about dragsters havin it done and a lot of modifieds as well. no they didn;t do it either as that zabrinsky thing would cost someone a retirement plan. although I think racin in general does too but that aint my point. lol. They mentioned it and I checked out there website a couple years back and yeah I think it's quite amazing how they do it. I was having it explained to me right after a pro stock at SFS was dq'd for porting throughout the intake manifold. So I got a crash course in it for about........ummmm an hour or so. I'm not some expert on the subject here. lol. I'm meanin this post more on the humorous side, but when the fella above mentioned it - it rung a bell (don;t happen often).
But I would say from an outside perspective........that if a guy has enough dough he can have things like that done and pay even more to have it appear he didn't. I agree with you that with the proper tech inspection it can be discovered.........but how many places really do a proper tech inspection? Maybe I'm biased there as I don't think OKC EVER does ANY.
If I ever get the dander up to look at a bunch of stuff I dont understand I'll hop on over to ya'lls website and take the on-line tour for a 2nd time. lol. cool lookin stuff by the way........ or I guess I could bug JD or Mike until they strangle me or I lose interest.........o wait a second.........damn it........already lost interest again!
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a
wouldchuck could chuck would
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August 30, 2007 at
09:36:32 AM
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Wesmar - There are ways to get around the 215cc rule. Which I am sure you already know. Sure the runner will be no bigger then 215cc when they are done but it will be an optimized 215cc runner.
I believe a stock ASCS head from Brodix checks around 207cc. It's kind of funny that the rules say "may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. " but yet they can not be more then 215cc.
Z-man - I have seen thousands of ASCS heads. You might want to check out acid porting a little more. The acid does not remove the logo. If you put acid on a logo it just eats it deeper into the casting. Which does not remove the logo.
There are certain substances that they use to make the acid eat where they want it to eat which makes the port more optimized.
Famous quote - "Where there is a will there is a way."
People spend thousands of hours figuring out how to make it fit the rules.
The only way to catch a cheater is you have to be a cheater.
I don't have a problem with rules as long as they are being inforced.
I think before every race they need to take everyone's heads off so they can be teched. The problem with teching after the race is that if someone gets disqualified it cheats everyone there. That cheater changed the whole nights out come for everyone there. What about the person they cheated in the heat race? etc...
Spelling correction - "zabrinsky's" I think you mean Brezinski Racing Products
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August 30, 2007 at
10:59:39 AM
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"...Z-man - I have seen thousands of ASCS heads. You might want to check out acid porting a little more. The acid does not remove the logo. If you put acid on a logo it just eats it deeper into the casting. Which does not remove the logo..."
BigDog,
I understand what you are saying but I think you missed my point or maybe I didn't make it clear. The comment was made that acid porting could possibly hide any illegal port work done to a cylinder head. This may be true. However, the cylinder heads in question had the ASCS logo ground off to which I was being sarcastic by saying I didn't think that acid porting could replace the ASCS logo once it had been removed from the intake runners...CZ
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August 30, 2007 at
11:00:54 AM
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What do you guys reckon was going on here? http://www.hoseheadsclassifieds.com/ClassifiedDetail.cfm?ClassifiedKey=7125
www.Numbersusa.com
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August 30, 2007 at
11:27:08 AM
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This message was edited on
August 30, 2007 at
11:29:08 AM by the_mystical_goose
One of Two things...
Calvin has been running modified ASCS heads on his 410.
OR
He's been racing an open headed 360 against the 410's at Knoxville.
lol
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August 30, 2007 at
11:44:15 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: z-man on August 30 2007 at 10:59:39 AM
"...Z-man - I have seen thousands of ASCS heads. You might want to check out acid porting a little more. The acid does not remove the logo. If you put acid on a logo it just eats it deeper into the casting. Which does not remove the logo..."
BigDog,
I understand what you are saying but I think you missed my point or maybe I didn't make it clear. The comment was made that acid porting could possibly hide any illegal port work done to a cylinder head. This may be true. However, the cylinder heads in question had the ASCS logo ground off to which I was being sarcastic by saying I didn't think that acid porting could replace the ASCS logo once it had been removed from the intake runners...CZ
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I don't remember anybody saying that the logo was removed.
If that is the case then he was completely illegal and there was no use of taking off the heads.
There is no gray area when the logo is removed.
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August 30, 2007 at
11:45:14 AM
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Reply to:
Great Example.
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