Forum: Oklahomatidbits.com General Forum (go)
Moderators:  /  David Smith Jr

Cheese,

I am not trying to offend you or your father, I don't even know you guys. I apologize if I have and understand now why you are doing what you are doing. Again, I am just trying to say respectfully that maybe the class you are trying to compete in is beyond your fincancial budget.

As a racer i think the draw helps bring in cars. It was one of the reasons we went to Lawton this past weekend

Cheese just keep doing what your doing. When i started racing i was in the same boat your in with my dads cars and parts and i agree 100 percent with the line up the old way. Let everyone say what they want but when they switch it and you whoop em you can be proud. Everyone has there own opinion on this though

The lady takin pictures is one of my sponsors Diamond Photography.... Thats what she's doin for me is building the "star cards" and posters for sponsors to try and help me maintain the sponsors I've got. You'll see shortly. I am thinkin once you see what she's doin maybe we can get Chris, Casey,and some of those guys hooked up with her. Sorry Chris but I'm not sure who you think I've got helping me with all this knowledge but stop by any night this week and you'll see me there by myself workin on my car if your referin to my brother you'll see him drinkin beer or takin care of his kids, and on the part of goin back to mini stocks or whatever when I started I had friends, fans, and all that good stuff at the races, you go win 6 races in a row at the Lawton Speedway and you'll be amazed how many boos and things your wife will find written on the bathroom stolls about you, people will hate you that don't even know you. I've never turned down an autograph or ever backed away from helpin a fellow competitor, I feel if I get outrun by someone in equal equipment they were better than me, I'll tell you any and everything you want to know about my car, motor, or anything. But you won't find any sportmanship trophies sittin next to championship trophies. I guess I'm just a dirty driver and don't realize it! Thats why you won't see me in one of those cars or ever runnin for points again.....Sorry touchy subject.

www.genesisshocks.com www.hypercoils.com If you need 
it I can get it!

Maybe you don't have as many people helping as I thought but you definitely have more knowledge of race cars and set up and such. You have had much more exposure to these things than I have over the years. There are only 2 people in my family (and friends for that matter) that could give a rip about racing cars and that's Jeff and I. Jeff's Dad likes to go out in the pits to watch. None of us have grown up around race cars though. I'm not whining, just saying having the know-how to build and repair cars has alot of monetary value. Hell, I can't even weld!

Still don't understand your point about going back to mini stocks... you lost me.

I could write 13 paragraphs here.......

and in the end my exact point would be what Unc posted here lol.

thanks Unc! lol.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Cheese read this one carefully,it is the truth.

Steve Moyer CKS Fabrication & Welding                  
CKS Chassis                                            
I want my last words to be "damn this is fun"

If you Smart Asses that really know EVERYTHING even had a clue as to who Cheese21 is, you would be amazed and most likely be embarrassed by your counter posts.

Just my opinion here,

I believe in the system of higher point average to the back, its a very good system for weekly shows.

It makes for a good show for the fans!!!! this system has been working for many years, at many tracks, and a lot of different classes. Why would anyone want to change it????

I remember when Alan Marker dominated the PRO STOCKS(won SFS, Enid, and MAPS Championships in same year) and I dont anyone would have had a chance if he wasnt starting in the back every night. Dustin Allen this year would have walks in the park if he started up front, imagine Robert Elliott or Milt David starting up front of a weekly sportmod event. They would checkout...

My point is this.... the system in place works and levels the playing field. So I say, if a driver dont like it, then go join a series and race it!!! Not being rude here at all but it takes everyone to make a good show and that includes the lower budget teams. Its rather simple when you look at it open minded...

Again this is JMO

Jayson Ellis

Not really.

Draw once a month for grins............!......Ok...ok....!!! Never mind the thought!

How about this:

Then line up in reverse field in the heats from where each car finished in the A the week before. Those that progress to the A-Main from there line up, again, according to their final positions in the previous weeks A-Main only reversed.

Sand baggin' wont help you much under this system until the next weekend. It would allow for a broader contrast of cars and drivers. .....and as such would make a great show for the fans, and spread the points and winners out a little more evenly.

If you won this week, you will start in the back next week. If you break or dont finish well this week, next week you start up towards the front.

In a field of say 16 cars and you came in 8th, you would start in 7th place next week.

If you came in 10th you would start the next week in 6th position.

If you came in 13th you would start next week in 3rd position..

If you finished 3ard, next week you would start in 13th position.

Anyone who did not race the previous weeks A-Main would tag the back. More than two cars not running the previous weeks A-Main would have to "DRAW" for their rear starting positions among their individual group.

JMO, but this seems to work to everyones benifit....." well maybe not a few"...but most !

MM

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !

Not to even counter anyone's point......

But I think it is worth noting here that right now this is just coming off a class' bye week. I have often been critical of Lanny Edwards, but I think he made the right move by doing it this way. As a fan, I do not like the draw. Not completely against it, I just thinkt he invert provides better racing. From what I have seen among weekly racing at SFS - and all ASCS races (which utilize the draw) - I think the draw may in fact work very well - FOR TOURING SERIES. They do not always have the same racers at all shows. So of course in turn, it is not within reason for them to do an invert. And I believe it is the opposite for weekly racing. I think for the SFS weekly show - the invert provides the hgihest quality racing action. I think the first experiment - the sport mod feature of last week - support this as well. I believe the race would have been much more entertaining had Justin Allen started in the back. Not meaning that in a negative way at all - I think he still would have won. Great driver. But I think it would have been a higher quality race had he not started on the pole.

I truly do think the draw is best for a touring series. Equally, I believe the invert is best for a weekly track. especially a track that tends to have higher car counts.

I could see where some drivers would want the draw. Of course, I would bet the majority that support this are in the top 5 of their class. That is the only group that this favors. It does not favor the rest of the field. And it damn sure isnt better for fans. Whereas I think this is a bad idea - and a bad format for a weekly show - I am actually really glad Lanny did not go full fledged to it. I think he made the right call there. I don't like it, but if we have to have it - at least it is not every week. I hope the idea is done away with altogether, but if we do have to have it - at least it is not every week. And I am glad to see Lanny open to trying new things - although I could make a strong case that it is not the format he should tinker with - but his point system. The point system at SFS is horrid. I think we need the ascs point system - not the ascs lineup format.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

I think we all agree that this method would usually put the faster guys in the front. It seems like in most people's argument against this, the assumption is there is only 1 fast guy up there and he will run away with it. I would say that most classes will have at least 5 or 6 (hopefully more) fast guys in the feature. Wouldn't this be a good race? Lapped traffic would come into play much sooner so that can create excitement as well. This doesn't mean an average or slow guy couldn't ever start up there. They could do well in the heat and earn a spot up there. A fast guy or two could also have trouble in the heat and half to start in the back. I have seen this system for the last several years (mostly as a spectator) and I never felt board.

The Nacho Kid? embarrassed lol,not hardly.uncle a look on the side of cheeses car then tell me that I dont know who the kid is.FYI there are two cars that say the same thing,guess the other one.IF these two had big $ helping them the sky would be the limit.Smart Ass I may be,but when their cars break, they know where to get them repaired.

Steve Moyer CKS Fabrication & Welding                  
CKS Chassis                                            
I want my last words to be "damn this is fun"

good points CFoster26.

I can't say I feel bored either lol. But that is because dirt track racing is an exciting sport. I don't think there is just 1 fast driver. But the "group" of fast drivers would have much fewer cars to pass to get to the front 90% of the time.

It kind of worries me, because I think this weeks super sprint race will still be a good one - and then folks will tout the format as if it worked. Whereas I have seen no one yet acknowledge that the experimental draw format did not work out well at all last week. I mean, looka t that race and imagine that in other classes. Imagine Stanley Reed Jr. starting pole sometimes - or first 2-3 rows every week. geez........

No it is not just 1 fast driver. But there are small groups that are miles ahead of the rest of the field in most SFS classes. sometimes money, sometimes talent - sometimes both. I don't know why and I don't care to. I just want to see the best racing SFS can put on. The best possible return for my ticket value. I have thought 10$ was a steal for some of our shows. Whenever we have Supers, Champs, and USA Mods running - and have 25+ cars in each class - 10$ is a STEAL. I think he should do 12 - but I understand why he doesn't. I just wish he would not mess with our format. I have talked extensively with a few people way before this became an issue - about the inverted format we run and how it has so much to do with the quality of the show.

I don;t know how any fan could like the draw over the invert. As I said before - I firmly believe the draw is the best format for a touring series. Either that, time trials, or double heats is about the only thing that makes sense for a touring series. But I think it's very opposite for a weekly show with high turnout. And again, whereas I do not like it - I strongly praise Lanny Edwards for not completely going to this right off the bat. But I think if this format was used every week - it would deal a great blow to the quality of the show. Of course it will still be good. All of us unanimously believe this sport is fun as hell to watch (and those who can - participate). But it would be a great deal less passing and charges from back to front. Maybe not every week - but definitely most.

Imagine 2 full racing seasons - with both seasons averaging the same car counts - lets say around 24-25 or so (just a figure). If we ran a full season with the invert - and really tracked the numbers - and then a draw for all of the 2nd season..........I would bet everything I own it would be less passing and less excitement in the 2nd season. How much is hard to determine. I would guess anywhere between 25 to 50% less passing.

If this draw format idea was something all of the drivers wanted - I would feel much better about it. But it simply is not. This idea has the most support from those who already enjoy either talent, money, or both - advantages over the rest of the field. No I dont feel they should be "penalized" for that. But I also dont feel that the invert is a penalty at all. It's freakin great watching those 4,5,6 best in the field make great charges from deep in the field. It's great watching those who are not quite on par with the aces - drive their asses off to see if they can hold those drivers off. It;s hard to get excited about a race that Stanley Reed Jr. type-caliber driver starts on the pole. Thats how the sport mod feature was last friday - and it sucked. I mean, great for Justin Allen. He is a fantastic driver and I am not at all taking anything away from his feature win. But it was not a very exciting. If he would have started 4th-5th row - I think it would have been a much better race. just my opinion as a fan. and not meant in any way to take anything away from Justin Allen.

Sorry, but this will be long lol. I have watched the draw format in ASCS for the last 8 years or so. And much of the time it does suck. A lot of the time - their heats are terrible. Everyone thinks this format really brings out the best racing. Not really. Oh there still is great racing. Like I said, exciting sport and we all love it. But the draw should be called for what it is - LUCK OF THE DRAW. Luck is already an intricate part of racing - this just makes it worse. Many times the heats are like night and day. One heat will have damn near every ace in the field - the next has none and sometimes worse. And some mid level driver in that will get lucky and draw outside front row - win the heat and then boom - in the redraw. In the previous heat - Jason Johnson could run from 8th to 4th - no redraw. Thats why they tinkered with the structure of this format over the offseason. It's really not that great. I think the draw tips the balance to where luck becomes to big a player. In the invert - especially after the first month (4-5 races) of the season - the invert makes sure every heat is equal - and that the proven faster cars are in the back. And sometimes we still see little passing in the swampy heats.

It seems many have short memories. How many ASCS races have many of you been to at SFS? Some of you - I can't help but think VERY few. Anyone who has seen them all over the last 3 years and has some common sense could weigh in big time in this discussion. Most of our local shows in any season - are much better than the doubled admission price ASCS races - much of the reason is the format. We probably have more passing in 4 weekly sprint shows - than ASCS has had in their last 10 races at the Fairgrounds. That may not 100% accurate - but I bet I am not far off. Hey I like ASCS a lot. I understand why they run the draw format - I really do. It's what is best for that series. But I am literally 99% sure it is not what is best for our track - unless we have all suddenly decided we are anti-passing and would like to see a lot less of it.

I present my opinion with much due respect to everyone who has posted their thoughts likewise on the matter, whether they agree or not. I agree with several points CFoster26 has made. I have been to every SFS show except maybe 1-2 each year - and then it was only to attend Knoxville 360 Nationals or some other ASCS show. And I have been to hundreds of ASCS in the last several years. I like ASCS - am a big fan and supporter of them. They have great races and I think they are the best series in the nation. Just as sure as I am that the draw works best for ASCS to enhance the quality of their show - I am equally sure that the invert is what works best for State Fair Speedway and the quality of it's weekly show. I care not what the "results" are of SFS's experiment with it throughout the season because we all already have a bias - if the track is in good shape and we have a good turnout - we are probably going to like the show anyway. I have seen both formats for the last decade - even both formats at SFS several times - and I think there is really little dispute - the proof is in puddin'.

I could make a hell of a case week in and week out with every race that tries the "draw" format. Thats kind of the problem with this. I could point out where it fails every week, but ya know what? - In the end I am still going to enjoy all of those races. There still will be wheel to wheel excitement and things of that sort. I just think it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that there with the draw there is only 1 direction to go - and it's south. It's impossible to prove the draw better than the invert - because if done in the long term - it simply cannot be. It's much easier to prove the invert better quality than the draw. If you look at every ASCS race here as a whole - and every weekly race here as a whole - the proof is in the puddin'. And this is where I wander why the promoter even thought to try this. I worry he is catering to the top aces in each class - the same group that needs absolutely no more catering to. Because there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that over the long haul this would be better quality for the fans than the invert.

No disrespect to anyone, just presenting my extensive thoughts on the matter.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Let's just see what happens. Your just speculating at this point. Although your intitled to that opinion.

Let's just say ole cheese draws the 1 pill every week. Is he gonna be complaining? I would think not. Not picking on you Brandon. Just using you as an example. Now let's get out there and race and see waht happens boys.

Point average line ups works well in the weekly races, & the draw is good for the touring series.

Although as a" mid level car owner" in my opinion one draw for heat race line up is enough.... but that bogus redraw in A.S.C.S SHOULD NOT EXIST.

I will complain about it every week that we make the top 8, sure you would like it if you run 7 or 8 & redraw 1 or 2, but did you really earn it.. NO. And that never goes our way.

If there must be a redraw make it top 4 not 8, I could somewhat digest being knocked from the pole to 2nd row but not to the 4th row.

They say its better for the fans, well maybe, but I'm sure the fans would rather see a dash rather than a Crown Royal bag redraw.

The Sprint Bandit formate is the best.

B.T.W, I claimed to be a mid level car owner but, I believe my driver is truly an ACE !!

   elbows up...stand on it hard.., & get that win!!
             #22 sprint  Norman, Oklahoma
                    Boomer Sooner

Let me make an observation and please dont anyone be offended, its not meant to offend anyone.

In a lot of discussions ( not all...of course) the topic or subject seems to start to lean towards how that topic or subject is related to Sprints or ASCS. Now dont take offence boys, stop chewing that gum so hard, its not an attack, just an observation.

There are many more racers and car owners who run other series race cars. Mods are well represented in most discussions but I see the rest just seem to fade away when the Sprint car guys and gals start entering the discussion.

Do these other racers and owners feel they can't discuss issues with Sprint pilots? Or is it the other way around.

I would also like to point out that the "DRAW" is not just about ASCS and Sprints. It involves every racer and owner out there who is subjected to it or who may be subjected to it at some point in time.

Factory cars are some of the best at starting from the back and clawing their way to the front. It does seem to make for a good show. I did see a fast Factory car take a hard lick a few weeks ago after a battle from the back, he was knocked out of the race. Its early in the season to have to spend that much time and money to fix her back up. My point is the draw or lack of a draw could effect this car as much as any other on the level that they play in.

Mini's, and Limiteds are just as expensive and worrisome to run at their level and are just as dedicated as any other race team. They too are effected one way or the other by a "DRAW".

Whats my point?

I would like to see all the deferent series teams, drivers and owners representing their individual class and opinions right along with the Sprints.

After all is said and done, everyone who straps in a race car and plays in the dirt should be afforded all the respect and courtesy given to any other series driver/owner.

.........and no I am not accusing anyone of anything, just making an observation boys.

........and yes I know its a free Country and these guys can chose to join in or not.

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !