Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

According to ibracin the twitter responses from teams to these new rules was mostly negetive.

Im not attempting to argue, honet question here...A 2" wicker bill seems like an insane amount, and while I can understand that it will help the cars in dirty air, isn't it creating a lot more of it? Or is it a negligible amount relative to the amount of dirty air these cars/wings are already creating?

I am not very bright on aero either, but 360 cars have used 2 inch wickerbills for years at Knoxville.  I have heard some 360 drivers complain at losing down force in dirty air.  Also they can use a dished wing which many do.  I do not understand why WOO will let you use a 2 inch wicker on a flat wing but not let you   use a dished wing.  I was told by an Australian that every one in Australia uses a dished wing and they get less dirty air.  I do not know.

no idea, I don't work on or drive a car.

If the above poster is correct that the drivers are against the changes, then it tells me the WoO didn't ask for driver feedback and if that's the case, they are misguided.  If these small tweaks were results of drivers wanting them, I can understand making hte change to see if it makes a better product.

if that is the case, then Carlton and the WoO brass are stupid.  I guess when I think of rules (in anything, not just auto racing), you ask those that actually play the game (or race in this instance) to get their feedback.  If most say it will make the racing worse or less passing, you have to take them at their word IMO. 

Like I stated before, why would the drivers want more dirty air and make it even harder to pass?  They shouldn't.

This is NOT true.  Knoxville 360s have had 2 wing options...1) Dished or 2) Flat, with 1" wickerbill.

AJ Foyt at the Grove in the 60s

Opperman at the Grove in the 70s

Steve Kinser at the Grove in the 80s

The sprint car itself hasn't evolved much since 1980. It is by most accounts perfection. Heaven on dirt.

The only major changes in the past 30 years are the tires and the heads.

The motors should be unlimited like the late models instead of 410/360/358/305.

That's what the fans want. That is what the sport needs. It should not be splintered.

The tires are the main problem. They ruin the clay, they rubber down. They are too hooked up to have a rough race track. They hurt the racing. They are a complete waste of money; tire, engine and rear end.

Screw the tires. F-1, IndyCar, NASCAR, late models all run smaller tires than they once did. Let the drivers drive and help the car owners from throwing in the towel.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

http://www.woosprint.com/images/stories/MainImages/PDF/2016RulesBulletin.pdf

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

The drivers and crew chiefs have been on the Outlaws for two years now to fix the tire deal.  The Outlaw hierarchy got hammered by owners and crew chefs at the owners meeting in Charlotte again about the tires.  The Outlaws actually listened.  

What exactly are they doing different or "fixing" by going back to a 18" wide tire like they always ran for years and years before?  Not a fvcking thing other than making it easier to win off the front row again so Schatz doesn't win as many races. Pretty sad that the rest of sprint car racing has to pay the price just so a couple of Outlaw teams can pick up a handicap.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

WOO regained the sanctioning of the Nationals within the last 4-6 years.  Was unsanctioned for a while prior to that.  That being said, with show-up points only, sanctioning seems pointless to me?  100 cars will show up either way. 

i think you will find that 99% of drivers and mechanics are happy about this. Not just the outlaws. no one liked that RR tire 

Not looking forward to an 18 rr.  I help fund and wrench on a local car.  This should just give more of an advantage to the teams with the most motor, even if its only for qualifing.  We used to run a 4" wicker in the old days on a short track. It will take more hp to pull the 2" one and you would think more dirty air.  

According to Knoxville history, the Nationals were unsanctioned from 1961-1977. In 1978 the Nationals became  sanctioned by the WoO, and were through 2005. In 2006 the Nationals again became unsanctioned. In 2011 the Nationals were once again sanctioned by the WoO for a one year deal. Since 2012, even though the WoO name remains connected to the Nationals, the Nationals are unsanctioned and are operated under Knoxville Raceway rules.

Actually if you look back to before the spec tires and flat wings, we saw many more winners coming from beyond the 3rd row than we do now. We saw a lot less different faces in victory lane but a lot more of the top drivers winning from starting positions 9-12. There are some people out there who want it both ways and I think that has been proven to be impossible, at least in 410 sprint cars. Hell I remember Hodnett winning an early season race at the Grove on a daylight track from 18th in the Apple car. That was 2004 I think. Central Pa hasn't seen anyone win 20 410 races since Fred Rahmer back in 2005. Hodnett got 20 wins total this year but at least one of those was in a 360. So I'd think that if we're reverting back toward the old way of doing things, this may only make Schatz that much more of a force but I won't even begin to assume that's how it will be. I don't think anyone knows for sure how it's gonna go until we actually see some racing. We'll know by mid May next season how it's gonna work out. I'll just wait until then and see how it goes before I form an opinion.

I have been unable to get anyone to say what they didn't like about the current RR tire. All anyone will say is it's junk. Well, what exactly does it do or not do that they don't like?  

Thanks for exact info-I seemed to remember it like that but didn't bother looking up. 

Main point was, they can adopt or not adopt any rule they want or don't want at Knoxville and at the end of the day, the sanctioning of the Nationals is pointless.  Most people weren't even aware that is has been on again, off again sanctioning anyways.  No difference-all the best show up for the show regardless of rules.

One of the complaints that I've heard mentioned several times is that the side walls are too stiff and won't let them move around on the track and utilize multiple grooves like they want to be able to do therefore it makes passing more difficult. A lot of drivers and crew chiefs were happy about the change and expressed their approval on Twitter. R.J. Johnson was particularly vocal about it. I don't drive a sprint car because I don't have the balls and even if I did, I'd probably be lacking quite substantially in the talent department so if that's what the drivers want, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Like I said before, no one except for God himself knows exactly how this is going to work out until we line them up and wave the green. We all have our opinions about how we think it will go but no one knows for certain. It may end up actually being a good thing. I remember when they made the switch to flat wings. Everyone had an opinion, mostly good, about how they were going to unhook the cars. No one mentioned the possibility of dirty air being a BIG problem resulting from the flat wings but once they raced with them for awhile, it became apparent. That's the only way to truly know. Hopefully this change is a good one.

I had that at my fingertips because of a slightly heated deabate on DirtVision last year with one of the DV people. There was no way he was going to concede that the Nationals weren't still sanctioned by the WoO. I gave up trying to get him to see the facts. I remember when Knoxville dropped the WoO sanction, Ted Johnson (God rest his soul) stated that he would schedule a huge WoO show in Texas and go up against the Nationals.  Ralph Capatani simply laughed and said "go right ahead!" Ted passed away the next year after a long bout with cancer. Of course the WoO didn't schedule against the Nationals.

The Goodyear tire was specifically designed to unhook the cars. It had a very stiff side wall and it made it hard to run the middle. It also didn't grow down the straightways. Schatz sucked around here on the Goodyear for a couple of years. People started to detune their motors and car counts grew. It did what it was supposed to do. Immediately when Goodyear didn't re-up their contract and Hoosier took over again, track records started to fall. Hoosier didn't have as stiff a sidewall, their compound is grippier and they are bigger around than what the Goodyears were, even if they are 2" narrower.

The Hoosier is stuck harder and car counts have started hurting locally again because of it. With the Goodyear 850 hp was enough. With the 16" Hoosier and a flat top wing they are all pushing for 950. WIth a 18" wide Hoosier and a 2" wickerbill they will be back to the days of 10 race motors. The good old days when best financed teams could win 30 races a year from 12th? Oh wait, Schatz is already doing that now.

With a bigger tire and wickerbill they will certainly be faster and more expensive. The faster they go the worse the racing. They can't pass now until the track slows down 2 seconds for the feature. The heat races are still going to suck and car counts are still going to suffer. It is as simple as that. The only series to be looking to next year to see if they actually make some real headway is SOD with their 13"x100" RR and 12.5" wide LR. All people are going to be talking about around here is sucky car counts like they already were doing at the Grove this year. Now people are already worried about Port Royal as well. I guarantee you if they went to a 13"x100" RR and 12.5" LR around here a shitload of people would move up from the 360s, 358s and 305s.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com