Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

the civil war was a vehicle, started by 360 tracks for the benefit of 360 tracks and their drivers. it was a means to bring more purse to drivers and butts in the seats for promoters. adding non 360 tracks adds no more cars to the series and they dont give a damn about the non compete thing as they don't run them anyway. Say your a promoter, you have 30 nites of racing to schedule in a season. there are 13 or so civil wars two of which are yours, that leaves 11 or so nites without your headliners. there are some friday tracks in there but getting 360 teams to double in a weekend is difficult. now what do you schedule as a headliner to put butts in the seat?

 My big bitch is that the non weekly tracks do nothing to advance the cause of 360 racing, rookies and less funded  teams cant afford to run them and travel. there is a cost to weekly tracks for running a class weekly. promoters can make real money by running only specials, a couple woo races, a couple kws a couple civil wars, maybe a monster truck show and done for the season, however this does nothing for norcal racing. it doesn't bring along the young ones stepping up from karts or street stocks. also your wrong about promoters having input. It was heres your dates take it or leave it.

 I think the biggest difference is one of philosophy, civilwar was by 360's for 360's, now its a vehicle for increased costs to the racer for travel, tires, pill pull ect and a vehicle for selling over weight, overpriced mufflers and a host of other crap. we have our 360 team and will support the local tracks of marysville, chico and placerville which ever direction they choose to go....paul

if i remember correctly calistoga has a history of hosting civil war shows. it has never had a 360 series. hanford has also hosted civil war shows when it didn't have a 360 series running weekly. so the practice of tracks that don't have a weekly 360 series hosting civil war has been going on before this year and last year.

don't track promotors have to agree on the dates they host civil war shows. don't they know if that date might be a historical date for another track when they book the civil war? don't the track promotors look out for each other?

like i said calistoga has a history of hosting civil war shows. stockton hosts its civil war show after most other tracks have finished their season. so you seem to be complainoing about one show at tulare. a track that hosts the biggest 360 show on the west coast.

to indy and beyond!!

something else i am trying to understand, and thank you by the way for your prior input, is this.

historically the civil war runs between 12 and 15 shows per year. as you stated you can expect to forgo a certain number of 360 events per year to the civil war. as long as track promoters are not being increasingly asked to forgo more shows to civil war each year, it would seem irrelevant as to where the civil war shows are scheduled. if a track promoter is still forging the same amount of 360 shows each year to civil war, then i see no bearing on what tracks the shows are at. i would go further and say as long as it doesn't make them start to have to give up more 360 shows it is none of their business where the other shows are scheduled.

now if a promoter is asked to start giving up more 360 shows each year due to an increasing civil war schedule, i can see the concern. this year there seems to be 14 civil war shows scheduled. that seems to be within the normal amount of races civil war historically runs.

to indy and beyond!!

You're doctoring up your argument to suit your agenda. If Tulare and Calistoga weren't on the Civil War schedule, one of the other participating tracks would host it and there wouldn't be a problem.

Based on Paul's insight, Buzz's question seems valid. Regardless of what track is scheduled to run a CW series, if the # of dates stays approximately the same, participating tracks who followed their own gentleman's agreement wouldn't be losing any more money then they have historically. I personally dont have any issue what track is scheduled to host the CW race, as long as they have the cars to support it, which Tulare easily would have. To expect the foundation for which the CW series was built by, a 360 series being for 360 supporting tracks, which seems to be an elitist or fraternity theory from an owner 2 times removed, to still exist today is not something i see that will help advance the sport. If a track/promoter can support a CW race with a decent # of cars and can pay the promotional fees (which are obviously questionable and decisions owners have to consider), then its more than entitled to host the race, IMO. Lets be honest, guys like Paul and Jeremy Hawes are never going to support a CW race at another 360 track outside of their regional area, but what about the regional racer in the Central Valley always having to travel significantly to race against the Civil War? How does that help the sport if  the majority of the opportunity is at tracks north and east of the Bay Area? Its time to expand the reach of the Civil War series, and IMO, the Central Valley will continue to be a hotbed of upcoming talent that will continue to feed the sprint car series with the strong breeding gounds at Plaza Park and Lemoore micro racers and promoters who are showing signs of continuing to support the sport as well. 

i'm just stating the facts. if tracks aren't being asked to forgo any more 360 dates than they usually would because of the civil war schedule, then it matters not what tracks are run. if tracks are being asked to forgo two or three more 360 dates than they normally would, then i can see the concern. didn't the civil war refuse to run at ocean speedway a few years back? didn't maysville decide not to run civil war shows one year a while back? people can do what they want.

as i said, the civil war has run at tracks that do not normally host a weekly 360 series, it is nothing new. calistoga has a history of hosting civil war shows. hanford has hosted civil war shows in the past without having a weekly 360 series. stockton doesn't affect any other tracks as its date is after the other tracks have closed for the year. if the civil war can run the same amount or slightly more shows in a season and hit some venues outside their normal circle, and do it without asking the other promotors to do much in the way of giving up any more 360 dates at their own tracks, then i don't see the problem.

it seems the only civil war track that has scheduled this year against civil war that i have seen is p-ville.

to indy and beyond!!

the civil war started out to be the north against the south....until the north refused to travel. for the civil war to be the 360 equivalent to the 410 KWS series it has to try to hit venues in as many regions as possible. calistoga is a historical track and the promoters have done a lot to the facility lately. there is no reason for it to not have the chance at the predominant 360 series in the area. tulare is one of the best tracks in cali and hosts the biggest 360 event on the west coast. to not give it the chance to host the civil war is rediculous. stockton is an up and coming venue that has proven itself and hosts the civil war after the other tracks are done for the year.

just sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me to bitch about where the schedule takes the civil war.

if promoters have a problem drawing a show absent the 360's then it might be better for them to consentrate more on their own business than worry about someone elses.

to indy and beyond!!

Stockton isn't completely blameless. They scheduled a $3k to win race on Chico's Civil War show where Silver Dollar ended up with 19 cars two years ago. PMG and Dan Simpson have a lot in common. They take over a series, everyone worships them until they realize they aren't turnkey money makers and money doesn't fly into their pockets and they are left to grab for whatever money they can. In PMGs case, don't tell me the $20 pill draw is for employees, Doesn't help the racer whatsoever and alienates them in fact. There is a lot wrong With this new regime And scheduling and extra fees to get in the show are the start.

two years ago i don't think stockton hosted any civil war shows, so they didn't have any obligation to the civil war. so now who is doctoring their argument to fit their agenda?

to indy and beyond!!

if a promoter is sitting back waiting for someone else to make them money, they are in the wrong business.

instead of complaing about what they can't do on certain dates, maybe promoters should be looking to the opportunities it CAN do on those dates.

maybe they should be thinking about what entertainment they can bring in on those dates that they go dark on 360's to entice people to come to their venue. after all, they scheduled civil war shows knowing there has been a gentalmans agreement to not conflict their 360 schedule with civil war.

seems like some promotors have maybe gotten complacent knowing that they have a set group that line up waiting for them to just open the gate every week. they don't know what to do on the dates that group is someplace else.

to indy and beyond!!

Spill the beans Buzz. Why is Handy holding events againts the civil war series? With your wealth of knowledge on this issue inquiring minds want to know. 

unfortunately sometimes i'm just not as smart as you think i am.

to indy and beyond!!

when the cost of going dark exceeds the value of a couple races the promoters will bail. when the cost to the racers exceeds its value as a series( tires, mufflers, travel, bad officiating) the racers will bail. The smart promoters will provide an outlet for these racers. Handy is just the first.....paul

i don't think anyone is asking you to go completely dark. i respect anyone who takes on the job of promoting. i would think you could find a way to offer some form of entertainment to draw people in on the nights you may not run 360's

i know that even though ocean speedway runs on fri and that hasn't had an effect on it having to make consessions for civil war shows, that track doesn't run 360's on a weekly basis week in and week out. it probably has the most limited 360 schedule of any track that runs a 360 series in the area. they alway have been.

you have gone dark on 360's for the civil war before. if i am not mistaken i don't believe you are being asked to do it any more than you historically would.

also correct me if i am wrong that you didn't run civil war at your track a few years back.

to indy and beyond!!

Maybe the $20 pill draw is needed to pay drivers to show up & race Ocean instead of Hanford.

paul in looking at your schedule you have many nights you go completely dark that you could run 360's. some of them don't conflict with civil war. still it is your choice who you want to race against.

to indy and beyond!!

I no longer promote MRP, and am merely a humble racer again. when I did it was a constant struggle to serve the fans with variety but keep enough butts in the seats. with 410's, 360's, and spec sprints off the table. what lineup would YOU schedule that would show a profit and still bring in people. Tracks in the central valley have the added burden of 105-115 degree nites after june 1, fairs, festivals, other tracks signature events, semi pro baseball and assorted vacations. when you see a dark nite, look around there is a reason....paul

Paul i didnt realize you were not promoting. I thought i heard you were going to stop but i was mistaken to think you had  not. Sorry.

As far as trying to tell someone what to do or what to schedule that is not up to me. Every promoter needs to find what works for their particular situation. What would work for one might not work for another. I havent been to marysville in a few years but it seems that you may have left it in better shape than you found it. No matter our opinions on things or how they may differ, i have to hand it to you for that.

Gettingback to your statement to me about what i would suggest to a promoter. I wouldn't trust anyone who would actually take my advise. Just as i would never join any club that would actually have me as a member! LOL.

to indy and beyond!!

well said...paul

I can confirm that Marysville improved greatly during Paul's tenure there. More than any other previous but since my first visit there in 1991 I can confidently say each one who took the helm over the years improved the joint. Compare the amount of improvement to the next dirt track up the road (Silver Dollar) which is ZERO over the same time period and some people should be ashamed of themselves. I wouldn't expect much in terms of improvements to the place given who has taken over now. It's not a hard assumption to make given they are part of what was in control at Silver Dollar since forever ago. Paul: you and the people who helped you should be very proud of what you accomplished with that facility. You set a great example just by how much you gave a shit about the place.