Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

so you telling me that Williams Grove, Lincoln, Chico, Etc., Etc. re-schedule weekly shows??  They don't either....

The weekly shows @ Kville pull in a VERY good crowd (better than most WoO shows do at every other track across the Nation outside of a handful of tracks -- most tracks the Outlaws race at don't even have seating capacity for the weekly crowd @ Knoxville) and some of the weekly shows THIS SEASON exceeded the crowd count for the Outlaw show here in June.

Does anyone really think that the big name drivers and teams would skip the Knoxville Nationals if it were unsanctioned?  They didn't in the past (including Steve Kinser that has raced ZERO non-sanctioned races except the Knoxville Nationals since 1994).

I've been to many Outlaw shows at other tracks and while yes, the stands are "packed", I've yet to attend one that is a "sellout".  Been to Volusia -- seating for maybe 3000 total and some of the stands were half empty, been to Spencer, IA (stands were not full, maybe 3/4, heck had empty seats in our row and lots of empty seats in the GA grandstand too).  Have been to Burlington (not sold out), been to Lakeside (ditto), been to Eldora (granted it's been a few years, but it's never sold out except the NASCAR truck race and the World 100 outdraws the King's Royal as well), been to Attica and Limaland (again, no sell-outs).

Seating capacity can make a crowd look vastly larger (in a small venue) or vastly smaller (in a large venue).  It's the same problem that things like Arena Football and NBA D-League Basketball face.  They can have a team that draws 5000 a game in a 15,000 seat Arena and the place looks empty and there is no "electricity in the air", yet another team that draws 3000 a game to a 5000 seat venue looks almost full and there is a "buzz in the crowd".  it has nothing to do with ## of fans, it's about the # of fans in the # of available seats.

3500 people @ I-80 Speedway in NE looks like a HUGE CROWD when you are there, but those same 3500 people @ Knoxville and it looks like the place is Empty (they are so spread out).  You can have over 1000 people at Knoxville to watch the races and have ZERO people in the grandstand (suites in HoF, 2nd floor of HoF and suites on frontstretch).  and have another 3000 in the grandstand and it still looks empty.  Even with 6000 in the stands it looks pretty empty (over 17000 seats will do that though).

Hey John (scf) I remember an 18 car count at Eldora for an Outlaw show.  It was the night that Mark Kinser was the only car to finish his heat, he went full bore and crossed the finish line all by himself, it was sad and comical at the same time....

Vande it's been a few years since I left travelling around with those guys but I have been to most of the tracks they have raced at in the last 20 years and dang near all of them were full most of the time and that includes a lot of the shows in the NST year.....

Most people do NOT follow the W of O's in this forum, they are fans, never heard of this place and show up when the Outlaws are in town.  I talked to thousands of fans over the years that stopped by my photo booth that had never heard of Hoseheads, you would be very surprised, I was on a daily basis.  It's pure folly for people to think that the average sprint car fan lives and dies with sprint car racing in this forum, especially these days......

Okay, I fail to see where I mentioned Williams Grove, Lincoln or Chico? I am finding it very hard to see what your point in this debate is? The fact is, the Outlaws draw good crowds wherever they go! You, in my opinion, specify the problem with Knoxville. So embroiled in their own self importance, that they fail to see they need the Outlaws for the sport to grow. I know they thought having 1 Outlaw show this year would give the Locals an advantage. Well, an Outlaw still won! 

speaking of advantage...15 car's only challenger challenger had 30 more laps than a regular night...jumped starts on prelim night to be awarded a front row start and was still falling back as the final laps ticked away.

you want to beat DS at Kville you need to wreck him or save yourselves the money and frustration by changing the rules to get rid of qualifying altogether and DRAW for FINISH - take a few photo and get you tractors ready to pick corn.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

You brought up the weekly crowds and not making up weekly shows, not me, i simply stated the fact that other weekly tracks don't make up events either.

Do the Outlaws draw good crowds, yes they do.  But comparing a weekly crowd at Knoxville to an Outlaw crowd at another track is often very comparable.

Does SPRINT CAR RACING need the WoO for the sport to grow?  Yes the overall SPORT does need them (but it also needs the All Stars, PA, the new Renegade Sprints, SOD, ASCS, etc., etc.).

Does the addition of the WoO to the Knoxville Nationals bring any benefits to teh event?  None that I have seen (in the years of unsanctioned the crowds were comparable, the television exposure was the same, the print exposure was the same, the same drivers and teams were there, etc., etc.).  What is gained by the fans, drivers, teams, or raceway with the Outlaws having their name on the event?  nothing, the fans have the same ticket costs, see the same drivers and teams and race program.  The drivers and teams race for the same purse and have the same media exposure.  The raceway may actually BENEFIT by the absence of the WoO name as they don't have to pay sanctioning fees.  Tell me how having the Outlaws helps this event grow??

Do I think that the Fairboard gave any thought at all about how the locals would perform when the schedule was put together and approved by only having 1 Outlaw show?  no, it's about turning a profit.  They lost $$$ on the Outlaw shows the years prior (crowds were WAY worse for the Outlaws than they were for teh weekly shows in both 2012 and 2013).  Why would you have them there multiple times to lose money??? 

By going to one date, the event probably became profitable in 2014 (maybe -- the weekly crowds have been as good if not better than that WoO crowd all year and have half the purse, get over in a much more timely manner (less payroll and expenses) and the racing itself is better).

I can tell you one benefit of having the WoO there, Johnny Gibson on the mic.

Steve Kinser has ran non WoO events the last few years as well.

Really?  He stated TWICE during Nationals week that he only runs sanctioned shows and has for basically his entire career.  last unsanctioned show he could even remember running (410) was @ Eldora in a USAC non-wing show when he drove for Karl (and he hasn't driven for Karl since 1993).

He has raced a couple 360 shows AFTER the WoO season ended in NM for one of his sponsors (Messilla Valley Transporation) the last couple of seasons I will agree, but they weren't 410 shows.

410 I don't know, but yes, he has ran ASCS out west last 2 novembers at El Paso and/or New Mexico.

well, other than Australia, 410 I don't know