Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Im not going to get into a pissing match with you Larsonfan, but talk about the pot calling the kettle black, you are the king of childish grade school remarks, i agree Williamsgrove could do things to make racing safer at the track but so could every other track in the country, it comes down to free will and our right to freedom in America, you cant have it both ways, its a drivers free will to choose to race at Williamsgrove, when they make that choice and sign the waiver its to late to blame the track for getting hurt. If you want a governing body to tell tracks and drivers what they MUST do to conform to a set of saftey rules, you are infringing on the rights of tracks and drivers free will, even if its in the name of saving lives. Motorcycle riders in Pennsylvania and other states fought to get rid of helmet laws. I personally think you are insane to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, and when a rider gets killed or crippled because he chose not to wear a helmet its his fault, not Penndot or the Govt that made it legal to ride without a helmet. sorry if you are offended but thats the truth and the jury felt the same way in this case. I hope Williamsgrove does consider changing some things for the saftey of drivers, if they dont, drivers will still have the freedom to choose to race there or not.

I'm not really sure how financially feasible it would be for a track to provide all drivers in all divisions track-paid health insurance policies...

Not commenting on whether it's "the right thing to do" or not, but I get the feeling that no local dirt track anywhere in the country could manage to afford that.

At what point in a civilized society do we actually become accountable for our own actions?  It seems that there is always someone to blame, someone to point fingers at, etc.  Trying to find out about insurance, coverages, etc. should be done (if you are worried about it) before you compete or even run one single lap. I don't get the monday morning quarterbacking of what WG should do to improve safety.  If you are unhappy or don't feel safe about it...don't race there!  I feel bad about John getting hurt, but he wasn't forced to race there.  If more and more people agree that it is unsafe, there will be less and less competitors and then WG will alter their thinking...or they won't, it's their decision.  I am curious as to how suing for multiple millions of dollars helps the safety at WG?  I think it speaks more about the situation that John continued to support and/or own a car that raced at the unsafe track than anything else...although I understand that that information really wasn't given to the jury...if so, I think it would have been 12-0.

I still do not understand how he can say "I always believed tracks provided us insurance and owed us a duty to provide safe conditions", he claimed he never read the waiver, what did he base his beliefs on? He watched his friend get killed racing at that very track and knew about all of the "unsafe" conditions at the track but now acts as if he didnt know it was unsafe, cmon John, everyone feels horrible about what happend to you but its time to admit you knew the risk before you got in the accident.

I truly feel bad for John Westbrook because of his circumstances, but thinking that a track provides insurance for all it's drivers is naive at best.  I do not race a sprint car, but I've certainly heard of situations where individual drivers have a policy that covers them specifically for racing and that added risks it brings.  That said, those drivers (or perhaps sponsors/team owners?) pay for those plans individually.  Similar to an athlete insuring themselves or part of their body in the event of a career ending injury or worse.  The Grove's insurance policy is in place to protect all those who don't sign a waiver.  For instance, if the bridge collapses some night, I'm willing to bet everyone on it at that time would be getting a settlement, paid for by WG's insurance company.  Why?  Because you don't sign a waiver to cross the bridge, nor is there any "cross at your own risk" signs.  

I'm also unsure why he thought the tracks insurance paid for injuries to drivers. There are participant liability endorsements for policies like the Grove has, but #1 they are expensive because when it comes down to it what your paying for is high risk coverage to cover someone elses injury that you did not cause, while their participating in a known high risk activity. #2 the limit on this type of coverage if you were to purchase it is quite limited usually and would not begin to touch the bills that come from an injury like Johns, the limits are often $10,000 per person and then another little larger per/occurence limit. The tracks liability policy did exactly what it is meant to do, if they are liable for something it pays if not but someone claims they were, it will defend against the claim. I believe their are some series that carry coverage like this for participants, but once again, its more of a good-will gesture coverage than it is coverage that can be expected to actually cover the whole loss.

Nothing in liability and negligence is clear and definate, I could give examples but if you change the littlest detail of that occurence it could change the answer, like the bridge example somebody threw out a couple posts ago, I can think of 10 ways they would be liable if it collapsed and I can think of 10 ways they wouldn't be. I know its easy to pile on and call him the bad guy for suing but I always believe that until your in the shoes of that person there is no way you can say definitively how you would handle it. I just hope for myself its a decision I would never have to make for any reason. From what i know I think the correct outcome was reached though.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

I would assume that "most" racers in the country beleive that the $30 to $40 you pay each night to get into the pits for "insurance" also covers themselves if they get hurt (along with anybody else).  Seems like a reasonable assumption to me.  If it does not ... what does the insurance cover?

What tracks are you going to? I have never paid $30 to $40 for insurance at any track, I pay for a pit pass which allows me to be in the pits, while i get my pit pass I sign a waiver saying the track is not liable for any injuries i might sustain as a result of being in the pits, at no point did I ever assume i was buying insurance for the night. Please explain what your talking about because you lost me.

the place hasn't done a thing for safety in years! If tracks safety progessed like the drivers, we would be still racing without roll cages 

there   have   been alot  of   good comments  and   some  ugly   ones. Putting  these   aside  , it  is  not   good when any driver   gets hurt . Yes , they  should  be helped  in someway  , Ms   Hughes  should  help  John  Westbrook  in  form  of compensation . And  yes , to the fans  who  said  more  improvements  are  needed  at  WG , SAFETY  ,CONCESSION , FAN AMENITIES, IMPROVE   RESTROOMS AND OTHER  ITEMS could be done  at  WG Speedway . But  the  Grove  has  been nasty , not   customer  savvy  and more  not  like  other  tracks  in the  central  Pa  or   other  parts  of  Pa .  A  long  look is needed  by   Ms  Hughes  at  what  has been brought   forth  by  this    trial  and  outside  this trial  at  the weekly  shows , as   attendance   has   dropped . I  wonder   why ? 

This lawsuit has probably kept Williams Grove from building a catch fence because they were afraid of looking culpable. Hopefully now that the waiver was upheld they might consider it. The racing community would appreciate it.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Do you have any proof that no offer to settle was made to Mr Westbrook. The way matters like this go is before this went to trial, I'm sure both sides participated in mediation, this is normally demanded by the court to see if the matter can be resolved prior to going to trial and spending the money of the tax payers by having a trial. Offers are almost always made at this point and it is up to the plaintiff to decide if they accept the offer, now the thing with the offer is, even if the defendant believes they have a good chance of winning in court they make an offer they think is worth settling for rather than going to court. One catch of mediation is that if the defendent makes an offer and it is not accepted by the plaintiff, if the plaintiff is awarded less in court than what was offered in mediation, the defendant has the opportunity to request the plaintiff reimburse their their trial expenses. I'm guessing that since Westbrook lost in trial he is looking at possibly having to reimburse the WG or likely their insurance for court costs. 

I would't be surprised if in mediation WG and their insurance Co. offered a couple hundred thousand dollars to settle this matter out of court, but when you've got someone asking for $6 million or whatever it was that amount looks like a tip at Burger King. Any offer will not be known though.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

There is absolutely no reason any driver can explain to me why they do not carry their own insurance policy. 

www.competitiveadvantageprogram.com  

Covers drivers up to $500,000 with a $15,000 deductible.  The cost per year is $217.00 !!!! The driver can enter an unlimited amount of races at any track in the US...... that is basically the cost of ONE right rear tire !!! Granted $500,000.00 will not take care of John's medical bills for life but it is better than nothing, and would have covered all his bills to this point. Also John's injuries are a rare freak accident and the $500,000.00 would cover 99% of injured drivers. ( a few I remember.... Dewease / back injury....Esh / back injury...Stewart / broken leg...Slowthower / back injury...Harli White / fire burns... etc)

A good friend of mine races locally in PA and buys this policy for his son who drives.

If a drivers says he " can't afford" that as John stated he couldn't afford a Real neck brace ( instead of a go cart foam neck support ) he should get into another sport because he is in over his head. Tell that same driver he starts on the front row of tonights feature and you can bet your ass he'll be over at Millers during intermission getting that new Right Rear tire so he has time to mount it up and go win tonight. 

What does that have to do with my post?

Wow...$217.00? That is very reasonable.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

What does any of this have to do with this case, I will explain it one last time so even the most simple mind can understand. In this case, It doesn't matter if williamsgrove hasn't made a safety improvement in 25 years, John Westbrook knew all about the lack of safety updates before he signed the release and made the choice to race there anyway, he took the risk, just like every other driver has done before and after Mr.Westbrooks accident, the difference is Mr.Westbrook got injured taking the risk and now wants someone else to pay for his decision. I never said the Grove doesn't need to improve safety, I never said they shouldn't improve all the things you mentioned above, but if the grove chooses to ignore the safety concerns and drivers continue to take the risk by racing there, its there own fault if they get hurt! If I choose to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and I wreck and get severely injured when a helmet could have minimized my injury, it's my dumb ass fault for not wearing a helmet, not Pendots fault because they didn't make the road out of foam rubber, it's my fault, my choice, just like John Westbrook driving a sprint car at a 120+ mph on a track that you all agree is soooo unsafe, he made the choice he knew the risk so it's his fault, and the court and law agrees! I'm done posting on this, you sue happy blamers who can't take responsibility for your own actions are just not going to get it. I feel for John Westbrook and I agree it's tragic that he's in the condition he's in,  I sincerely hope he can get past this and move forward.

Probably referring to "Participant Accident Coverage".  K&K is one of the most popular companies out there for motorsports.  So there would be some insurance for the racers (up to $1,000,000).

http://www.kandkinsurance.com/Motorsports/Pages/Motorsports-Facilities-Events.aspx