Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

So if his mill has a recent rebuild, (I dont know where he runs locally) but this make a huge differance on how soon his mill will need freshening, RPM,and how long subject to it , HP, wing or non wing, valvetrain components, ect all play roll in this freshening equasion just how competitive of a mill does he have, lets sy it cracks 850-880 hp pretty stout piece, he runs Knox,WG,? proubly going to strech 10 nights on it , what time of season is it now? have you shopped for a set of good pistons lately? well his are junk now, so he needs a complete teardown,rings, bearings, gaskets ok now he went into 8k just for a new set of shitty pistons, "oe well" you say, buy different heads! OE, no not so quick, do some sopping for that item too.It gets worse!. Limiting compression isnt the answer for anything, 90% of the tracks cant hold all the HP most cars run today, thats a fact! good drivers use it sparingly, and drop hammer when the track will take it , you take the compression away they will find ways to achieve 12000 rpm and valvetrains will start to fatige earlier, Im just using this RPM as a example where your limitations in one area will increase spending in another, I hate to say it but the tires are the biggest and cheapest (disposable item) that would slow cars down, better racing? I dont agree 100% , but,it just depends on the night , Trouble is, GY has difficulty keeping 400's(they tell us) stocked, why? becasue they last, if you were a tire salesman you would understand customers need something if it wears out. its just sneeky buisness and these guys wanna go fast, simple as that.

I agree with everyone that just going to smaller hard tires would be the best way to solve the situation. It makes the driver mean more. I just don't think a compression rule would hurt anything. It will save a lot of money like the weight rule and the one RR tire a night rule, no matter how much teams with unlimited resources ball about it. And you won't notice anything from the stands either. Plus it is pretty easy to police.

Teams like KKR and Stewart already turn their motors as hard as valve springs will allow. A compression rule isn't going to allow them to rev them any harder. Our 358s can't turn them any harder with low compression because their heads won't flow enough. They are already up against themselves. A 410 with raised intake runners can flow better but the valves are bigger, longer and heavier also. 12,000 rpm just isn't going to happen. The reason F-1 can turn so hard is they have teeny little motors with motorcycle pistons.....tiny, tiny 4 valves per cylinder, and nitrogen filled canisters instead of valve springs. A monster 6" AllPro intake valve probably weighs three times as much. The law of diminishing returns comes into play. Kinser and Saldana are already changing valve springs every 5 races anyway. A compression rule isn't going to change that. It is only going to save 90% of teams a ton of money over the long run with little other noticeable effect. Worst case scenario is they might have to make them sleeve the injection down a little like ASCS does, so head flow is up against itself, instead of the valve train like it is now.

as I stated the 12,000 rpm was a bit of sarcasum, but many many teams are running in the 9000 area currently, who woulda thought ten years ago squeezing 850-900 hp from a (resembeling ) sbc was going to be achieved , So, thus a complete reconfiguring of engine dimensions is in order? , we havent even discussed static or dynamic compression yet ! what is so difficult about injector sleeves,tires,weight , something EZ to add or take off a particular car at any particular race night this topic is rather in debth for a problem half of us think exhists, I dont know what amount of compression reduction we are talking, but from the grandstands , be care full what you wish for, I watch 2bbl stock cars gobble for air for 3/4's a straitaway most of the fans in my home town think that is great, a pack of fender cars side by side for dozens of laps with no real clean passes, I just hope sprint racing never turns into something like this, thus my disgruntled reply to limiting a capped (410 cid) version already, Knox made the effort to run a 420ish mill with outdated heads and Inj I never heard much feedback, But I was first in line to with all ears to see how they compaired. Ive heard nothin...

I hear you, and here in PA we watch 358s run with 10 3/4 compression every week and most fans can't tell the difference other than they run smaller wings.... and they are thinking about just letting them run 25 square foot wings for just that reason.

They are already the headline division at Selinsgrove, the biggest fastest track we have in PA. They go 20+ races on a rebuild. They still go like a bat out of hell. The best drivers still seem to win. Low buck guys also have a shot to win. No one really seems to care they are 358s.

The only reason their car counts have dropped off some is because the dumbasses listened to the high dollar teams and opened up their engine rules so they could port their heads and they don't have a minimum crank weight rule anymore. Before that they had two b-mains every night. Money is the only thing that ruins racing. Everything else about it is appealing one way or the other, even the danger. Watch the olympics. Money doesn't really matter there. The best rise to the top. And out of them only the ones who want it the most. The ones that work the hardest. Not a bunch of rich kids on daddy's dime. The equation is simple. Twice as expensive, twice as bad, and can't even tell the difference in speed from when they used to cost half as much.

your compairing apples to oranges a F-1 car is outfitted with intercoolers ( i believe) and turbo, (ahh compression a beautiful thing) a 358 is limited in the intake runner velocity as compaired to most current (big dog) 410's , Im not so sure a 358 has lighter valves? so they run titanium? how cost effective is that? really? hollow stainless? dunno, im no engine builder , but, whatever you say. a biggy for 358's is irion blocks proubly cant survive more compression for longivity as well as bottom end components rods cranks ect . like i said apples to oranges, you whant a limited class ther ya go you got a 305,a 360, and a 358 too bad we have to call a Outlaw car a 410 its actually limited cid, but, agreed, you have to start somewhere with rules just not get carried away.

Your argument about having to rebuild your engine doesn't hold weight, because the whole idea of a rule like this is so you can run your motor twice as many races between rebuilds. As long as you don't have to end up buying different heads and injection to be competive with lower compression. You'd make your money back in one rebuild, even if you were too dumb to time it for the new rule in the first place.

If I were too DUMB to do it in in time? It's like this, my engine is fresh, haven't raced this year because I haven't had the money. I may get one race in. Now if they change the rule for next season, I can't use my fresh engine unless I spend 5 to 10 grand on a rebuild? That may be my entire racing budget for next season. I would rather spend that money on diesel, tires and pit passes to go run 10 shows, not rebuild an engine leaving me with enough money to run zero shows. Like I said, quit saving me money. I'm low buck and these rules keep biting me in ass, so quit it.

When they went to the flat wing rule, I wanted to go race, but didn't have a flat wing. I had a couple of dished wings that I had bought for 100 bucks at the flea market. No one had used flat wings for sale and I had $ 800 bucks kicking around to go racing. So I had to spend the money on a wing and not go race. The next time I had the money to go race was a month later and it rained. Then my job got in the way of racing for the rest of the season. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has been in this boat, so you end up with less cars on the track. I also don't rebuild my engines every ten races, I know that I can't hang with the guys that do on the big tracks, but I'll just keep working my butt off until I can secure the backing that will let me hang with them.

If I were too DUMB to do it in in time? It's like this, my engine is fresh, haven't raced this year because I haven't had the money. I may get one race in. Now if they change the rule for next season, I can't use my fresh engine unless I spend 5 to 10 grand on a rebuild? That may be my entire racing budget for next season. I would rather spend that money on diesel, tires and pit passes to go run 10 shows, not rebuild an engine leaving me with enough money to run zero shows. Like I said, quit saving me money. I'm low buck and these rules keep biting me in ass, so quit it.

When they went to the flat wing rule, I wanted to go race, but didn't have a flat wing. I had a couple of dished wings that I had bought for 100 bucks at the flea market. No one had used flat wings for sale and I had $ 800 bucks kicking around to go racing. So I had to spend the money on a wing and not go race. The next time I had the money to go race was a month later and it rained. Then my job got in the way of racing for the rest of the season. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has been in this boat, so you end up with less cars on the track. I also don't rebuild my engines every ten races, I know that I can't hang with the guys that do on the big tracks, but I'll just keep working my butt off until I can secure the backing that will let me hang with them.

thanks for the info, Im a fish outa water when it comes to IRL, F-l cars , I cannot see the "close" relationship between a sprinter and a asphalt cart car, yes open wheels, but, humm, some would set me strait Im sure, anyhow , its loud, light ,and fast whats not to like! , Im a sprint guy through and through, my recent visit to the Rolex 24 at Daytona, was a complete eye opener to the prototype cars, truely something I have respect and interest in since then, watching them on TV became a new intrest now that ive seen them live, Some forms of motorsport are tuff to understand untill youve been at ground zero, cart,Indy ,F-1 cars would be the same im sure, still havent seen my first top fuel car either, one more for the bucket list!

Don't tell me what's good for me. And I can't afford to race because the economy got the better of me, not because engine rebuilds are two frequent and expensive. When I get back on track I want to race under the same rules. So quit acting as the self appointed savior of sprint car racing, if you want to help the sport introduce a new potential sponsor to it, buy a low buck racers t-shirt, give your favorite low buck driver $100 to help replace a wing when he gets fed a RR while battling for a transfer, do something constructive rather than lobbying for changes that aren't near as helpful as you THINK they are. Using tires to unhook the car helps, I can live with those rules, otherwise don't mess with it.

Dave Argabright mentions in Sprint Car & Midget that the idea of a compression rule is being batted around again in big league sprint car racing.

Does the WOO have the manpower to enforce a compression rule or any internal engine spec? I suggest making the wings smaller by 15% and limiting the width and height of the rear tires. Easy to implement, easy to enforce and it will unhook the cars and put more emphasis on the driver.

They have needed to do a compression rule in 410`s for over 10 years now but havent done so, so here are the results, Knoxville used to get between 30 and 40 cars a week, now they might get 24 on a good night, PA. the count isnt bad and not sure what northern Cal has for counts.....and then the WoO they get 12 to 15 410`s and fill in the rest of the show with 360`s for the low low price of 35 to 40 bucks a head. As a fan I am P.O. the way we are getting ripped off and nothing is getting done about it to make the show better. 25 years ago a sprint car fan could go to a big event and see a 40 or 50 lap feature now they have to throw a red to go 30 laps because somebody saved 10 pounds by using a mini sprint fuel cell so everybody else had to do it. I went to a Late Model event a couple weeks ago that paid $25,000 to win, had 45 cars in the pits and run a 80 lap main event. I didnt see them burning up the tires and they damn sure didnt have to stop for fuel.

Since you're comparing to LM's.

Do LM's have a compression rule?

They do have smaller and likely harder tires than sprint cars. That is the real answer to the problem.

Any other solution is just dancing around the issue, unhook the cars.

Take the damn wings off looks like the answer to me, and make the cars stronger. They have the seats now which is huge. Look at Indiana and the car counts they have there.....everybody isnt locked down which takes the motor game out.