Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

One of Australia's leading speedway journalists recently described the internet (speedway) media as a bunch of "enthusiastic amaters". Whilst I am sure that he intended to be condescending, he is perhaps right.

But do these people need to be attacked for the contribution they make to the sport? For no financial benefit and at considerable cost to their precious leisure time?

I think the original post(er) presented a fair request. I am stunned by the attack on him.

It seems that there is a deeper resentment from some of the professional/semi-professional photographers and we indeed need to hear their case. But I think an innocent victim is being used as a catalyst for airing those grieviances.

This is a very good subject for debate, but let's remove the original poster's request from it.

www.sprintcardaily.com

While I do think that the original post could have been a little clearer (in retrospect), I also don't think it deserved the put downs that have been generated. I don't regularly visit many websites, including openwheel, but just took another look, and I, for one, see no need to disparage it. It is clean and uncluttered, has everything most fans would want, and is easy to navigate.

You don't even want to know how I recently described Australian speedway journalists.

Stan Meissner

Stan, I am missing something here (although I know you have been a bit active on AU Forums). Please tell...

www.sprintcardaily.com

Member of this message board since 1997

Hawker I won't fight you on that at all, you may be right. Most of the photographers that do make a living taking photo's shoot Nascar, IRL, and F1. For those who don't make a living doing it and wish to not pursue it, thats their choice, but some photographers do this for a living. I am a photography major about to graduate with my bachelors, so honestly I have no right to bitch about not being payed enough, but I do know enough that so many people are giving out free handouts that it is making it hard for the rest of us to make a decent living doing this.

Southjacket I am not saying that at all, I have seen a few usac non winged sprint events and you are right. I just like to see a variety of different types of divisions, not just a majority of one.

"An insult is an insult, some are personal, some are insult's to one's work, which when a person puts time and effort into something, only to be insulted, then it turns personal."

Johnny Murdock ring a bell hypocrite? I would cut and paste your week long rant on m/b's where you blast someone for putting time and effort into something that belongs to them, but you would only come back with your typical diversionary tactics wherein you proclaim your innocence and try to hide behind your resume.

With that said, I have no problem with someone such as yourself soliciting information or whatever for your "hobby". It is a service that has the potential to benefit everyone - photographers, racing series, tracks, drivers, sponsors, and even someone such as yourself Patrick. IMO, I think your use of the term "hobby" for your m/b is just another diversionary tactic that will allow you 1. an excuse when it fails, or 2. will be proven as another diversion you've done if and when you acquire banner ads and are able to place a value on the site. We both know how much you love money and make it your priority in everything you do.

The only thing I see wrong with this thread is there are people who will inevitably fall victim to your agenda before realizing who you really are. Didn't you have some personal information security issues with the last m/b you put together? Does your new site have a m/b that requires registration? That would just be the beginning for myself to be hesitant of partaking in anything you have set up, no matter the stated intention or how long you've been frequenting m/b's. You make your resume sound impressive, and I'm sure you're proud of it, but this is at least the third m/b this week where you have been involved in bashing on others efforts only to resort to taking on a victims role backed up by a resume of money and experience. Yes Patrick, you have plenty of it all - it's called BS. Start with telling these people how long you were actually in Afghanistan followed by how long you pretended to be there but were really back in Missouri. Smoke and mirrors, BS, or hypocrite. It all fits.

So in conclusion, I support the idea of photographers submitting their work to m/b's and or web sites without receiving a fee for that service. I also think said photographers deserve more respect, and monetary business, than they receive. Personally, I would like to see them focus more on getting the fans to acquire their work and a little less on soliciting the race teams. Unfortunately, for most of them, the true value of their work will only be realized after they have burned out on the "hobby" and someone like you tries to profit from their work on EBay.

Clear enough for you? Hypocrite.

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

I dont have a dog in this fight but that has to be comeback of the year so far. LOL. Damn its getting good in here. Popcorn anyone?

Cheers!

I rarely post here anymore but figured I would drag out my two cents for this. I see both sides of the preverbial coin here. I get requests on a daily basis from people wanting me to send images to them for their various web sites. I also find my images on a lot of sites that have never asked to use them. For the record I do not right click protect them on my site so it is possible for people to use them without my consent.

I invariably allow most drivers to use my images on their websites. I will tell them they or any of them reading this post that they are free to lift them from my website and use on theirs as long as a link is provided back to my site. The reasons for this are two-fold. First nearly every driver that asks for photos also purchases photos from me, or digital copies for shirts or even have me do hero cards for them. Some purchase them from my website and others at the track, while still others call and order. In that case turn about is fair play. The other reason is that when someone leaves a race track, especially a new fan, they do not seek out sprint car racing in general but rather the drivers website listed on that fancy autograph card. Links on their sites back to my site make a big difference in traffic.

Giving photos to websites for use outside of this only serves those sites. The folks that know to go to places like Hawkers site already know were to find my images and are probably in the group that check my site on Mondays or Tuesdays. There are a few exceptions, most notably Sprint Car Daily which has a large Australian following and Hoseheads, which is number one in all search engines when looking for sprint cars. This doesn't mean I won't let others use them I just do not go out of my way to send them. As someone else pointed out, we already put a lot of time into getting them ready and out to those that pay for them in a timely manner. And most all of us work full time, have spouses and even kids that command some of our attention also.

Perhaps as Andre said the OP was just a catalyst for something bigger that has finally broke the camels back. I for won't be at this much longer for many of the reasons on both sides of the argument already stated in this thread. Sorry for the long winded diatribe.

And Dave, thank you for just putting my name in the same sentence as some of the greatest photogs out there.

My two cents here:

If people are willing to contribute services (photos, writing) for publicity only, that's their choice. Personally, I wouldn't, but that's just me.

I've been covering sprint car and midget racing for Examiner.com for a little less than a year. While I'm far from making a living just through Examiner.com, there have been many benefits. Being part of a larger organization helps with exposure - when you search for sprint car racing news on Google, my stuff comes up first a lot of the time. It also helps with getting credentials - so far, I've had nothing but good luck in getting organizations and tracks to help me out when I travel to a race or need an interview during the week.

A quick bit of background: I started out as a "real" journalist, working at the Orange County Register for almost four years. I was sidetracked in the world of PR for about a decade before realizing that I'd rather do what I love - write - and write about what I love - sprint car racing. Writing for an online site like Examiner.com has helped me establish my credibility. I've been able to cover the Oval Nationals for the Riverside Press-Enterprise, and I'm currently working on a story for Flat Out Magazine. I probably would not have got any of these gigs without writing for Examiner.com.

That being said, I wouldn't write for free - even the small amount I earn from Examiner.com is enough to feel like I'm getting compensated for someone else making money (and since it's a pay per page view system, there's an incentive to grow my audience).

I definitely think that people are starting to understand the value of online media - the fact that online sites are very good at disseminating content to a wide audience, and that online content lives forever (versus a newspaper story, which - except for its online version - loses its value the day after it runs). If the mainstream media won't cover sprint car racing except for a few premier events, then it's up to people who care to fill in the gaps - that's the beauty of online reporting.

Are you going to get some sites that are less than pleasant to look at, amateurish in writing and generally filled with more enthusiasm than quality? Sure. But just like with any other product, sites that deliver unique content on a regular basis (and not just cut and pasted press releases that every other site has) will find a long-term audience.

To summarize: I think it's OK to see if photographers are interested in contributing work for free in exchange for publicity, but you have to expect that a lot of people will be offended by that. But online media covering sprint car racing isn't something to fear - I would like to think it's something that fans should embrace.

National Sprint Car & Midget Examiner
http://tinyurl.com/r4opgk

This is quite hilarious. You carry your Hawker agenda everywhere you go because you get owned on a daily basis on a massage board with "no rules".

Murdock - Please point out where I bashed him facts are hardly bashing.... A link posted here will be just fine.

If something is a hobby, how does it "fail". That one will keep me thinking for a while. Like I said, if I make enough to cover just the expenses of the site, not even the personal time I put into it, that would be cool. But if not? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. BTW, none of the ads on there now are paid for...

Security issues - There has never been a security breach of personal information with my sites.

What does it matter how long I was in Afghanistan? It was around 100 days and during that time, I did not have the time to take care of my page. Does that offend you? And PLEASE, tell the world how I "pretended to be there", while I was at home. This one should be good.

Member of this message board since 1997

Yep; getting interesting in here

What about the web-sites (web masters) that have taking waternarks and logo's off pictures and not giving credit for those photo's posted on there web-sites (I have and interesting email from one of them last year) and no it isn't Hawker

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"

Owned? Are you 12?

Murdock - IOW. You confused facts when you stated 12 yellows in 10 laps. Hardly a fact. More like bashing. Thats one example.

Hobby - I wouldn't know about your ads, because I do not frequent your site. Keep us informed on how it's going.

Security - Pumpman would disagree with you. Who knows how many others are out there. Unless of course you are denying reading information meant for someone else but intercepted by you do to the expertise and professionalism of your set-up work.

Afghanistan - 100 days was my guess too. A couple of months later I asked you if you were really in Afghanistan as you continued to "pretend" you were there in your posts. You wouldn't respond in public, but did send me a PM stating you were not, and also the reason why you did not want others thinking you were not in Afghanistan.

With that said - more Hawker diversion. You have now predictably played the victims role, next comes the resume. Don't pull your "provide links" BS with me Clavin. Everyone reading this has read most of the other crap you (and I) have posted.

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

Member of this message board since 1997

Hey, I agreed with you on this topic - friend.

Good job on utilizing techniques 1, 2, 3, & 6 all in the same paragraph.

The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.

Wow, I got on here thinking Hawker wanted some "grass roots' reporting from fans that attended various sprint car races around the country, you know local stuff. What a powder keg to solicit help from these fine folks. I'm not a writer and not a pro photographer either, but, when I attend races, i'll take some notes about the happenings maybe shoot a pic. or two and send it your way. You like it, print it. The more people know about the racers around this country the better.

Sean,

Tucson

!!SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL TRACKS!!
!!Get Well Shane!! 

Member of this message board since 1997

The means I'm just kidding. I have never said anything about Australian Sprint Car journalists or photographers. Why would I? I've never been down there and have never known a photographer or a journalist from that part of the world.

Stan Meissner

This discussion is getting interesting as I look at the whole thing from an entirely different perspective. My first racing wesite was started in 1997 way back before many of the largest companies in the world had websites and it paralleled the emergence of Hoseheads, TJ Slideways and other early racing pages. Back then there were few good website editors and most of us had to learn how to write html code in a text editor so it wasn't some simple CSS script that you'd upload to a server to create an automatic blog like they do today.

I had been taking photos of various subjects for decades and started my online presence by displaying a few photos my site. My dad used to be big into home photography back in the 1950's and had his own darkroom in the basement where he would process black and white photos. One of his favorite subjects was racing so I grew up playing with old camera equipment and going on photo shoots on the weekends. This is an actual photo of me at about two years old, probably around 1953, lighter in one hand, camera in the other.

It's no surprise that I picked up a 35mm SLR decades ago and started documenting our growing family. As far as my website goes, the others that started around the same time went national and took on advertisers. I chose to keep it local. Since that time I have branched out and become associated with magazines and several other racing papers as well as assisting tracks and series with their photo needs. Unlike the majority of photographers or racing media people I do this entirely out of pocket because I want to give something back to a sport that I have been around as long as I can remember.

Here is a post WWII photo that my dad took at a track that operated from right after the war until the mid 50's so this pic could very well date back to the late 40's.

Investing in digital equipment is an ongoing process with new gear added each season. Granted there are some additions that will have to wait a few more years until I'm retired and can put more emphasis on the racing but a lifetime of knowledge has enabled me to get the maximum out of what I've got at my disposal. Photographers who imply that anyone who shoots with a hotshoe instead of a Norman isn't a real photographer or a writer who doesn't have a journalism degree isn't a real writer in my case is akin to someone suggesting that Moses wasn't qualified to lead his people out of the wilderness because he didn't have a Masters in physical fitness.

So anyways, my photography goes back to when I was a little kid and my dad first explained to my why he held that little thing with the dials up in the light before he setup his camera. By the time I started grade school the mid 50's I was the only kid in the neighborhood who would show his friends an old camera and explain what the numbers f2.8 and f5.6 meant. And as far as working with the web, yeah I know I'm not a professional but on the other hand I was writing html with a text editor and building my own computers while many of today's web professionals were still in grade school.

My conclusion is that if someone can find a niche in this sport and their skills and services benefit someone and they enjoy doing it go for it. If dirt track racing was such a lucrative way to make a buck everybody would want to do it and I would be out shooting street rods and wildlife or some other subject. With me my hobbies are creative pursuits such as photography, writing, creating digital content such as websites and audio/video and building/maintaining my own computers. Racing just happens to be the subject I have focused on but I could just as easily have fallen into something else and continued to attend races as a fan. In my case I put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to promote Sprint Car racing in my area and this season I plan to focus on Sprints exclusively. I do it because I want to see Sprints prosper in this area that is dominated by Late Models and Modifies. We're expecting our 4th and 5th grandkids this summer so the day is coming eventually when I'll be too old and tired to sit hunched over a PC doing racing stuff. It's kind of ironic that all of a sudden this hobby I started doing over a decade ago when nobody cared is now dominated by people who think us internet racing pioneers are no longer qualified to enjoy our hobby. Go figure???

Stan Meissner