Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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I love you Cristy! : )

I won't take a side in any way on this....but I will say this.  When it comes to engines, and the price and the reliability issues and claims that are being made here aren't accurate in some cases.  You certainly can build an engine for $6000 to race in a sprint car.  But, the parts you're going to be using in the bottom end of that engine wouldn't even make a good hobby stock motor.  Reliability will be severely sacraficed unless you're planning on running that engine somewhere under 6000 RPM.  You can buy an excellent ASCS engine for 15-18,000 these days.  You'll have to look hard to find a good one, but it can be done....no question.  Also....they talk about reducing the stacks in the engine so an ASCS engine can run with them.  That's fine and dandy....but from experience it doesn't kill the horsepower like some people would think.  As I said before on the MN board.....4 years ago I had an NMRA engine under their rule guidelines, and dynoed it with 1 7/8 restrictors and open 2.100 (very close to ASCS which is 2.187) and the horsepower loss was 10 horsepower.  I still haven't found the sheets for Joe Kouba, but I'm still looking!  So Joe if you see this....I haven't forgotten ya!  That will drive the price up for competing immediately if you allow those engines to run with you.  That's just my .02 cents worth.

As I said, I am not taking any sides, but those are facts....just wanted them to be made aware of.  I am atleast 3 hours from any of the shows they're talking about, so the likelyhood of those shows being on my schedule or even having an effect on the places I race are pretty slim.  Would it be nice if we had 10 more tracks racing sprints in the region?  Sure!  Would it be great if we could pick from those places because they all run the same rules?  Of course.  The problem is (and I'm in no way saying this is the case here), most promoters are in it to make the most money they can....and they make rules to keep cars coming to their track, and if those cars don't abide by the rules of another track the likelyhood of keeping them at yours is higher if you have a different set of rules. 

Actually, its Kelly Westphal from Wesmar racing engines. He will be easier to find if you know the last name and business name. They are located in Bixby, Ok and the phone number is 918-366-7311

I have not read through most of the responses on here in great detail, but have skimmed through them.

Here are a few thought of mine on the deal, and I wish I had a couple of hours to eloquatly write and present this, but since I don't, here is a short rambling:

Any sprint car racing is a GREAT thing, especially if a group is trying to get NEW blood into the sport. So despite what some may think, I do not see a problem with this new group at all, and I say it is GREAT and go for it.

We have been trying for years to get new blood into the sport at Jackson. I think, sometimes when some of you "Sprint Car Fans" get to voicing your opinions about what you think should be done, you loose sight of the big picture.

We (the Sprint Car World) need to remember we are all in this together. From Fans, to Racers, to Crews, to Promoters, to Engine Builders and everyone in between. Those of us that are in it, need to work to get more people into Sprint Car Racing. We are a minority and if all we do, within this minority, is fight between ourselves for what we think is right (410 vs 360) (360 vs 305) (ASCS vs JSTS) (This new Deal vs IMCA) sprint car racing will never reach its potential.

As far as their limited rules package (I don't know very much about motors, either) but I do know that we tried to come up with the cheapest motor package around with our double barrel sprints and keep all of the motors even. We did this, but still not enough people want to run in this class (we are a small market). They all want to go faster or what the heck ever. And the engine builders seem to go out of there way to gain any sort of tiny edge that may or may not pay off in terms of a couple of horse power here or there. So I don't know that this part of the thing will work or not, but this is a whole nother topic.

Who knows, maybe this new rule package will be really good, and in a few years we all will be doing this. Of course over in Sioux Falls they are working on a crate motor program and maybe in a few years we will all be doing that. I do know that we will be watching both groups (but will definately not be changing much as we watch how they fail or succeed)

As far as the current rules being all different??? I would say they are closer now that they have ever been. There are a few exceptions, like an open headed 360 can't run a National ASCS race, or a Steel Headed 360 that can't run any ASCS race. But for the most part any ASCS motor can run anywhere. Knoxville, Jackson, Hartford, Arlington, Husets, and ASCS races. And at Jackson (at least last year) we still had it where say an Arlington, Hartford or Husets Steel Motor could run with us (not that many did). So basically if you have an ASCS motor, you can run anywhere. What is wrong with this?

I will try and get Back on Topic: Some complain that there aren't any Sprint Car races in the metro area. Then someone tries to do some races in the metro, and other say, hey don't do it like that...pretty soon your all aruging and remember, we are on the SAME TEAM!

Of course if they change to these rules only, then it would limit there teams and our teams from playing together. But here is the thing: If they go to this down the road, it must be working pretty good. So on this part of it, I guess I am impartial at this point, but would just like to see more sprint car racing. Some say that ASCS is way too expensive.

I am not currently running any 410 stuff, and yes we got turned down for an Outlaw date AGAIN.

Should I start telling everyone not to support the Outlaws because they don't want to come to Jackson? Heck no. Maybe some new people go to a Outlaw race at Spencer, and those people hear that we run Sprint Cars weekly at Jackson and maybe they give us a chance and come to a race and watch...

Should the World of Outlaw drivers, etc. tell fans to stay away from a sprint car show at Jackson, just because they won't run here? I would hope not.

We all need to work together to promote spint car racing. If your a true fan of the sport, how can you think that a new group looking to promote sprint car racing is bad? Even if you don't completely agree with how they are thinking of doing it, I think you should try and support it.

In the short term they may take a few cars from Jackson, Arlington, etc. Hopefully they get another bunch of cars into the sport. Maybe it would be better if they just did ASCS. But they think this will be a better set of rules and they are putting up the money. It always comes down to money. They think this will be cheaper for the racers and it will be a purse they can afford.

They for whatever reason think the ASCS deal won't work for them. So they are going to try something different.

It is not like they are agressively trying to buck another track and take all of their drivers. If the new group did nothing, would Sprint Car Racing be better off? And maybe I should reprase that, would sprint car racing be better off in the Twin Cities? I don't see how it could be.

I could go on forever, but most have probably already stopped reading! So I will quit.

Lighten up Francis(Christy). By the way, have you ever had to fund a sprint car race team for a season? I think it's a great idea that I wish more tracks would consider.

I have resisted hard the urge to reply but I can't resist the opportunity. The greatness of living in the democracy we have is I can shout back at the top of my lungs disputing what I know is wrong and or beleive is wrong. Once again see I see how all of the experts, especially you Christy , who have so much wisdom you can report what has NEVER been said. NO WHERE does it say or has it been said or implied or made mention we will outlaw current ASCS or Jackson type engines at any time in the future. The plan again for the 50,000,000th time is to run currently owned engines restricted back to kill horsepower, tire wear and to increase longevity. If 1 7/8 doesn't do it I will go to 1 5/8, if that doesn't do it I will keep going till I get a level playing field and reduce wear and tear on the engines. If for some reason my experience can not help me achieve this I may be forced to shoot myself to save face. The reason to have a spec engine is to give an affordable alternative to a 15000.00 ASCS that can compete. As for the UMSS spec engine not being reliable come and get a copy of the rules and then tell me its not going to be reliable. I have built engines for less than 4 grand on short blocks that are still running and winning today. Come to the meeting on the 25th and face to face tell me how stupid I am for helping find a place to race with in 100 miles of my house. Tell me again how this will cost you any more money? Tell again how it is going to fail if it is supported by the racers, fans and track owners. The reason the MSS failed: competing against WISSOTA. The reason WISSOTA failed cost of travel, to high of purse for promoters, lack of fan base to follow and then total lack of interest because ASCS was going to be the savior. Chuck Z has worked his butt off trying to get races up here as well did Pat Willis. Again a $9500.00 purse is to stiff for most tracks when you only bring 15 to 20 cars. You do the math people at 25.00 per head and if each car brings 4 people that is 100.00 per car times 20 =2000.00 if you only get 300 more fans at 15.00 / head that is 4500.00. tell me how they can afford an ASCS show? A 4750.00 purse is very obtainable for tracks around the Twin Cities. We have the opportunity to race, as Chuck Preifer said 25 times in '09 but this would invite failure as only a hand full of team could acheive this on todays bugets. When you set youself up to be successful you will be successful. I am proud of who I am and what I stand for. I am proud of my success in racing. With this being said I have been around long enough to know what will work and what won't. The Arlington cars should stay and support Arlington/Redwoodfalls. the Jackson cars should stay and support Jackson. The premise of the UMSS is to BUILD a stand alone series here in the Twin Cities area. By taking the 12 to 14 base cars here building on that. All cars will be welcome now and in the future if they choose to come and run.

Joe Kouba

Christy, to answer your question about the other club in Wisconsin, it's a 360 club in eastern Wisconsin called the MSA. They're located anywhere from 6 to 8 hours or more from us and they've got a great deal over by Beaver Dam and tracks in that part of Wisconsin. That's a h*lluva long ways but I wish it was closer because I'd go to Sun Prairie for the Badger Midgets a lot more.

As far as the important people who understand our sport. Ask Cappy how many Minnesotans run weekly at Knoxville. That's 5 hours down the road and takes a real stout motor. We're talking short tracks up here, 3/8 and 1/4 that are nowhere near as tough on equipment. I doubt if Wesmar will be building any of these motors once they get up and running. :Probably most of them will be from motor builders up here that you have never heard of like Wagamon, Kelley and a few others in the Twin Cities. Probably the furthest anybody will go to have a motor built might be Woodke but that's still in Minnesota.

You named some impressive people that are movers and shakers in the sport in other parts of the country. What they're going to be doing up here is probably pretty much off their radar. The only way they'll get involved is if one of these guys racing at Cedar Lake or Kopellah decides to move up in the sport. We had a couple guys that used to race 360's at Cedar over ten years ago that nobody had ever heard of. One kid from Minot used to race there in a black 15 and another guy raced a #7s car every weekend. Donnie Schatz and Travis Whitney. I guess you could say that our program up here has been of some benefit to the rest of the Sprint Car world.

Stan Meissner

Here is a fact:

There will be peace in the Middle East before racers, promoters and even fans come together for the betterment of sprint car racing.

Sprint car racing peaked in the early 90's and it will continue to decline for the forseeable future simply because of the above fact.

I didn't stop reading until the very end Jon. Is this War and Peace part two? Excellent information from a person with his finger on the pulse of sprint car racing. I know they would LOVE to have you at the meeting Saturday Jon!

      I agree with this.  But, when you stop and think about it, why was it better in the early 90's?  Really- weren't the same battle s being fought by the same groups of people?  What has changed since then?

     The costs of sprintcar racing have gotten out of hand, in relation to what the track are willing or able to pay for a purse.  Combine that with a weakening economy, and you have a recipe for disaster.  If, a group in MN/WI can come up with a more affordable way to get people racing sprints in their area, more power to them.  If it succeeds, maybe that will spread to other areas.  That can't be bad for the sport.

I'll agree that motor cost are getting outta hand. But why don't racers and promoters take a look at the weekly cost of racing. What's the "Biggest" expense every week in sprint car racing? TIRES! If car owners could cut their tire bill for the season in half, they could save over $2000 or more. (There's your engine rebuild cost at the beginning of the race season.) Why don't we run the hardest right rear you can buy? 2 or 3 nights on the same right rear would save loads of green backs.

Chuck and Joe are great guys and I wish them the best in their new adventure.

Disclaimer, I know almost nothing about tires and compounds. But I did hear that Pat Willis from Hoosier Tire North (an ex Sprint Car driver) is going to set them up with a spec tire and they have a good idea of what they want. Again, more specific information at the meeting from people who know what they're talking about.

Stan Meissner

So what about the 305 class in Iowa and the 317 class at Jackson, or the IMCA class at Arlington and Redwood Falls? ANYONE???

What about it?

Where has Cristy gone too? I need some of his/her professional advise for the up coming UMSS meeting.

If Cristy could e-mail me, I could ask him/her a few questions.

Cristy is out beating her dead horse. I'm sure she'll bring it by to show everyone.

www.Numbersusa.com  

Well Chuck, I was just asking you the simple question as: what about the 305 class in Iowa, the 317 class at Jackson or the IMCA class that runs at Arlington and Redwood falls, I thought these where suppose to be the economical class in sprint car racing? This is "what about it", so tell me as a (fan, sprint car driver or potential sponsor) what do you have to offer me that I cannot already get at a track near me? Why don't all you track promotors get togather and come up with a common set of rules so all the drivers can get there equipment togather to run these tracks. I have just mentioned 3 tracks that run 3 different set of rules in Minnesota and now your group has come up with another set of economical rules for sprint car racing. If your groups idea is such an revolutionary idea in sprint car racing I ask you this; why has this not been thought of before now? You have many options before you when it comes to sprint car racing and now you want to start another class of cars, maybe your group should ask the question to yourselfs: is this new class healthy for the sprint car racing in the area? So tell us on here why you wouldn't want to get your series started by running the IMCA, 305 or the 317 class rules?

If you come to the meeting tomorrow I'm sure they'll address all of these issues. As far as the other series you have mentioned I think it has been explained over and over again that this deal is going to be confined to a certain area and isn't going to affect 305's or 317's running hundreds of miles from here. If the people involved in this deal wanted to run IMCA at Arlington and Redwood they could have done that but they haven't. Again, look at the drivers hometowns in the Arlington results posted on their website and you'll see they're mostly from right around that area. Then go to the Cedar Lake website and look at the drivers hometowns and you won't see Mankato and Gaylord, nope, you'll mostly see places like Osceola, New Richmond, Somerset, and the east Metro. Same thing with Jackson, Grand Forks, Husets and every other track. The majority, the foundation of the weekly shows is the local racers.

I can tell you that the organizers have been in contact with eastern Wisconsin's MSA, the club that they'd like to pattern things after. They race over on the other side of Wisconsin and are very successful in that area but I notice that nobody even mentions them but they're no farther from western Wisconsin than Jackson. I guess your opinion of this new deal is going to depend on your definition of area. If you think of their area of operation as places like Cedar Lake, Kopellah, maybe Rice Lake, Red Cedar, and other nearby tracks then it's a non issue.

If you can't let go of the mistaken idea that they're trying to replace the ASCS, 305's or any other series then you're going to consider them a threat. No amount of explaining is going to convince anyone who's not willing to listen and think this through. Jackson and Arlington both run a B Mod class. The Midwest Modifieds up here aren't any kind of a threat to them and I have never seen a MWM from Jackson racing up here. Why should Sprints be any different?

Stan Meissner

Stan, I couldn't have said it any better. And yes, we have been in contact with the MSA. They are very excited about what we are doing here and we have and they have already mentioned doing some co-sanctioning with them. To me, this is a win-win deal for the UMSS and the MSA because we will be bring more sprintcar racing to an area that has not seen alot of sprint car shows. So to answer one question, We are working with a group that is putting on good shows every week. As far as the IMCA, they don't have any real engine rules, they are running ASCS motors with them, so they are no different then us right now.

The 317 deal down at Jackson, that's 180 miles from my house near Stillwater MN. Jon know's we aren't going to take any cars from him. He know's we have to do what is good for the Twin Cities and western Wisc.

And the 305 series in Iowa, there again, distance plays a part there.

So come to the meeting and voice your opinion. We will be there to listen. If you don't show up, have fun at whatever series you go to watch in 2009. But try to support all sprint car racing, whether it be 305-317-360 limited-360 ASCS or 410 racing. It's all the same. They don't have doors or fenders.