Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

They had a higher budget than everyone.  What are you smoking.  And to the rest of you guys saying Steve and Wolfie are better than Larson.  "They've won more races" "had longer streaks".  The 11 had 200 more horsepower and better equipment than the entire field.  Same with the Wiekert 29. Kyle Larson has the exact same equipment as everyone in the field. It's not even debatable.  Yes Steve is the King. And Wolfie is the man. Same with Sammy, Blaney, Doty, Jacobs... the list goes on and on. There's never been a better DRIVER in a winged sprint car than Larson. Period. 

Time to way in on this myself.  I believe he has added many things to sprint car racing right now and I am speaking purely from the driving aspect as I originally stated.  Every now and then a talent comes along and stands above the rest.  I remember seeing him for the 1st time a few years back at Lernerville and a gentleman sitting in my area was wearing a Kyle Larson shirt and talking with the group he was sitting with in the bleachers.  I recall thinking, I have never heard of this guy before.  WELL, he made sure that night that I would remember who he was because I watched as he started at the back of the 2nd 30 lap feature (old SIlver Cup Format) and proceed to charge to the front.  He was blasting through the rough stuff above the cushion with a recklass abandon, but yet with total car control and that is when I realized he was a special talent.  SInce then I have watched him many times in person as well as on dirtvision and it is even more apparent over the years that you see a talent like this maybe once or twice in a generation.  The sprint car world has been fortunate to have some great talent, but right now you have the rare talent of a crew chief and driver combination that will raise the level of everyone around them.  It is amazing what they are accomplishing right now, just amazing!

Actually I'm kind of angry at him for keeping me glued to the TV for most of his wins.  I'm not getting much else done in the evenings. 

Seriously, we're seeing a once in a lifetime streak of top finishes and wins that we're likely not going to see again.  When Wolfgang did it there was no PPV and didn't take place near me so I was only able to read about it.  This one we can watch history unfold one night at a time.  It takes a little bit of the sting off everything else being able to follow this. 

Stan Meissner

You are correct.  I would call Karl a budget racer compaired to todays iop teams.  Karl did not always get thing right but he was right more often than any other crews.  Karl and his two Kinser drivers did not always get along, but they won  and won.  Karl worked his ass off.  At times it was just Karl and driver, no extra help.  Karl and Steves wins will never ever be beaton.

No you're both incorrect. 1987 is over.  

The only "corporate" sponsor Karl and Steve had in the '80s was Coors Light in '88 ... unless I'm missing something!?  They maybe had some cars given to them from Gambler... but Karl built his own engines (with 200 more horsepower, as you claim).  You're correct that they maybe had better equipment, but it wasn't because Karl had a money tree in his backyard that he occasionally strolled out to and picked.  He knew how to build a strong engine, was smart as hell on setups, knew how to get his equipment to last, and in general, worked his ass off to earn everything he achieved... no residual NASCAR money flowing his way.  Combine that with Steve's driving ability and desire, and they were unbeatable.  

The times are different now... there is no doubt that everybody has more similar equipment than what existed in the 70s/80s/90s.  Larson is really good... but to say he's definitively better than Steve or Wolfie or Sammy seems a little out there.  This feels like a LeBron vs. MJ argument that has no end.  

When you speak about the Steve Kinser teams, go not forget about this Hall of Famer:  file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/gerkin.pdf

Very true... and no disrespect meant on that!!  Scott Gerkin was busy building killer engines in the shop so Karl could focus on everything else.  Without Gerkin, that team would not have been as strong.

Gambler House car and then Coors Light.  Then in the 90s  things obviously got really corporate.  And damn I hate even having this debate because I'm not trying to downplay The King. Or Sammy, Wolfie etc. I just know that they had the best stuff. It's not like that today. Everybody has 900hp, everybody has the same lightweight low friction rears, same bars, same wheels, same tires. The only difference is how many of each, teams have. TSR has like 10 of everything.  Steve Buckwalter doesnt. Hence 90 races a year compared to 40. My point is what we see with our eyes. Larson runs it in deeper, rotates it quicker and has the most traction coming off. And it's because of talent.  The guy flat out has more control over a sprint car than anyone we've ever seen. 

I don't claim any inside knowledge, wasn't even following sprint cars back then, but 200 HP more than anyone else seems hard to believe. Didn't the rules back then mandate a cubic inch limit & natural aspiration? 200 more HP would require a blower or nitrous, wouldn't it?

Lebron vs. MJ? I'll settle that one easy....neither. Wilt Chamberlain was the best hoopster ever

I get tired of the same guy winning just about every race no matter who it is, so yes I'm getting a little sick of him but he brings excitement, exposure and fans so I think it's definitely good for the sport - unless you're 1 of the other drivers or 1 of the fans sitting behind the nascar fans that stand during the race. No doubt about his talent. You just rarely ever see him make a mistake.

A

Shit, I remember in the mid nineties when Mark Kinser was driving for Karl, rather than buy a bigger fancier hauler they cut a hole in the roof and added a bump on the top so they could haul an extra car. I believe this was in the Wirtgen days so it's not like they were hurting for money. I think Karl Kinser was always a frugal car owner and spent money where it mattered most.

There is doubt Larson is good maybe even the best right and he certainly gets all out eqipment that it has.  This story of everyones equipment is exactly the same? The top teams have always and always will get the newest stuff before everyone else. There was a time when two guys at a track won just about everything. After a while team 1 started to win more. They used the same top engine builder. After a while the owner of team 2 told the engine builder that if he didn't start to get the same engine as team 1 he was switching to another up and coming engine builder. Guess what, team 2 started to win more again. There are always advancements happening and as I said te top teams get the newest and best first because it makes everyone eventually buy from the supplier with the latest and greatest. If he stays with sprints (he won't) he will be known as one of the best ever. No matter how much his supporters pound their chest as if they are doing something great themselves by supporting him it is too soon to say he is one of the best ever. I can asure you Kinser, Wolfgang, Shatz, Sammy,and others did not have the fastest car every time they won.

Good driver, but you can't do it witout a good car. Right now they are a step above the better teams. This is like Steve Kinser, Mark Kinser & Karl Kinser. How did  Mark Kinser get so good so fast?????? He didn't! Their cars were just better than everybody else's.

Just before the green at Lernerville.  Larson has looked great so far!  Perhaps another win tonight!

Well, I guess he's human now...

Great 3 way dogfight last few laps!

Actually glad to see Donny win again. I was starting to feel sorry for him...

How can the Lernervile race be that exciting when nobody in PA knows how to prep a track, or does Western PA have a guy who can? At least that is what I get from this forum.....

If Donny beat the best driver in the country does Donny become the best driver til Thursday?

I was following on twitter and the tweets actually kept me excited about the battles. Must have been awesome live, the highlights on the WoO sight were great. My question tho, from the highlights, how in the world can Johnny Gibson even talk after a race like that? He was into it.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Bravo !!

Johnny actually tweeted "I have no idea what I said over the last few laps. But DAMN THAT WAS GOOD!!!!"    I thought he ran out of oxygen with one lap to go but he just kept announcing until it was over.  

Karl was great in his day but I'm not sure how someone like him would fare today.  When I watch the crews thrashing in the work area it looks like all young guys in their twenties and thirties dressed in matching uniforms.  Now contrast that with some of the Karl qoutes at the start of the open red podcast and try to imagine Karl tamed down so as not to offend corporate sponsors and wearing one of those matching uniforms and being apart of what we have today.  The mechanical genius is likely still intact but I'm not sure how someone like that would handle how professional the sport has become.

It's always an interesting conversation to speculate how past heroes would perform in today's world.  I'm not so sure that they'd all fit in to the point where they'd have the same success today.  As was pointed out, a lot of teams had trick stuff in the past but everything today is over the counter cookie cutter stuff.  Sometimes the past is best left in the past and things that worked then wouldn't now.  

Stan Meissner

Awesome to watch live.  I was pacing the room.  At the end, I didn't even care who won.  With 5 or 6 to go, it looked certain it was going to be settled between Donny and Brad.  Then Kyle comes out of nowhere and blows by Donny.  Donny had enough of having his ass handed to him and found another gear.  I wish it was 41 laps.  They might have crossed the line side by side by side.