Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I have no dog in this fight and honestly have no opinion on who's better.  But how may years did Wolfgang race the full WOO tour?  Didn't Sammy miss a bunch of full years too?  I'm not knocking either one of them but there definitely is factors on both sides to say one was better than the other.  These are tough arguments to have because of the different eras.  Who's the better quarterback of all time?  Tom Brady or Johnny Unitas?  

I'm with blazer.  Certainly Donny is the best right now and will likely surpass a stat or two of steve's. But I don't see Donny near as versatile as steve. I'm not a huge non wing guy but I enjoy it alll, some of steve's NW  accomplishments are legendary, like beating the car at eldora for the bonus, dirt champ wins and in the early WoO years before the schedule was full and they were allowed to race elsewhere I believe steve went to haubstadt 11 times one season and won all 11!!  Let Donny show up at any local NW track and they struggle to make the show. 

The era steve started racing in, wasnt that alot of non wing?  So he would have ran more non wing than someone starting in the 80s?

NW was still quite prevalent in the 80's and still is today in certain areas. I would also add that there were likely far mor options to race in Indiana as compared to North Dakota. And most would agree more time in the seat especiall in the early days is a huge plus and I'd add youre only as good as the guys you run against. Look at who he had to compete against, many HOF's

Another thing people are ignoring is, during the late 90s, the era some people refer to as the golden era of the WoO with corporate sponsorship galore and tv rights, Steve struggled a lot compared to his normal dominance. He did win a couple of WoO titles, but his win totals were way down. Much of this was starting his new team and competing with Karl, but the narrative in the late 90s was that maybe Karl Kinser was the real king. 

Steve had a great tail to his career and started being the dominant guy again from 2002-05 which capped off a legendary career, but he definitely didn’t dominate from 1996-2001.

Certainly couldn't deny the role that Karl played. And Karl won before steve but you can't deny that they complimented each other and steve's ability to carry the car at the start of the race until the track came to them allowed Karl to do things that he may not have worked with lesser drivers 

At one time there was bad blood between Karl and Steve, because primarily over the dealings Steve had with Scott Gerkin. The deal to get Gerkin as I recall was done behind Karl's back when Steve lost the NASCAR ride. Karl had plans for Gerkin to do the road and Karl was going to spend more time in the shop and venture out as needed or for the big shows. Regardless......Karl absolutely marvels at Steve's ability in a sprint car during his OPEN RED segment, so old bad blood aside, I gotta believe Karl is sincere in his evaluation of what Steve could do. Regarding Karl and Mark......Mark was a consistant 5th, 6th, 7th place running car until he started driving for his dad. That's when Mark became a top gun. I think Donny Schatz has that in common with both Steve and Mark, today. The TSR #15 team and Ricky Warner deserve a lot of shared recognition for the team's success. And Donny reflects on that after every race.

Regarding your thought on a fixed number of features.....the same holds true for Steve, right?  Based on Steve's numbers there might have even been fewer wins to go around. But look back at Steve's years and how many drivers were able to accomplish double digit feature wins during a season?  At a fast glance, probably as many as ten different drivers. And some of those drivers did it more than once, and some quite often. And a few did it during both Steve's and Donny's title years, like Sammy, Pittman and Saldana. Then take a look at how many other drivers have had double digit seasons against Donny. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but it would seem to me that if you are racing against competition that can win a lot of races, you're racing against stiffer competition. Again, that doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. These are just the things I believe carry more weight in this debate. And kept friendly as this one has been, amounts to some fun. I will say this, if Donny were pressed harder each night to get his wins, I believe he still would. He's smart, he's smooth and like all the greats, he "feels" it more than the next guy.

I really didn't intend it to be a GOAT discussion which is why I was only looking at a 10 year period.  I didn't even bother to go pull stats to make an argument one way or the other.  It was more of a gut-feel "who inspired more awe when they pulled up to the pit gate" question.

Agree totally with your point about comparing athletes from different eras.  The game, the equipment, the level of fitness of the athletes in general and the strategy/rules all change.  In the stick and ball sports, the stats have changed significantly (i.e. Brady's passing yards vs. Unitas, there's no comparison).  In racing, the stats (wins, laps led) are still similar, but the availability of equipment, tires, track prep and sponsorship have changed.

I also think that in the stick and ball sports the physical makeup of the athletes has changed dramatically.....bigger, stronger, faster, so that in itself makes those era comparisons tougher. Todays athlete in the stick and ball sports have a distinct advantage when it comes to the tale of the tape so to speak. I don't think racers, other than maybe training and nutrition have that much of an advantage over yesterday's drivers. I think the physical makeup is much the same from era to era in racing.

The big difference in football is the RULES. In Unitas day, offensive line men could not use their hands to hold at all. Now they can grab the defender by the jersey. Back then, defensive backs could hit receivers constantly until ball was in the air, now, one chuck within 5 yards of scrimmage & then no contact.

No way to compare.... don't get me started on basketball....

I take nothing away from Schatz's he's a dominat driver but Kinser is without a doubt the best sprint car driver to ever live. ( Of course i'm a little biased )

Bingo. It's driver/ crewchief/ team combo. Does donnie have the stats he has today without years with warner? Probably not. Kinsers without karl?  Probably not. On a smaller note, Larson and Rico without Silva? NOPE

Steve was the best driver in traffic I have ever seen. Donny is more conservative in traffic.

Donny ain't too shabby at wheeling his Late Model and that isnt easy as there is a lot of competition.  I'd say that makes him pretty versatile.  Winning a Late Model Feature is no easy job up here.

Stan Meissner

I completely agree with you about athletes today being bigger, stronger, faster and more specialized for their sport (year long training, where 50 years ago they had to get a job in the offseason).  But the other thing to remember is the players they are going against are also much bigger, stronger, faster and more specialized too.

That's funny you say that.  I've always thought Steve was flashier, he never seemed afraid to try a line nobody else would and would make it work.  Watching Schatz, many times to me he just looks like he's in the right place at the right time.  Almost like he's lucky.  Don't take that last statement wrong, I'm not saying that Schatz wins only because of dumb luck.  You don't have the kind of success he's had with luck alone.  I think he gets what he needs and only what he needs out of the car, and that's why he's so much better at the end of the race, he hasn't abused the car as bad as everyone else.  Just my opinion.

I understand that. But we're talking about one era vs another era, not the current era vs the current era. Todays stick and ball athlete vs yesterdays stick and ball athlete would be the discussion......and today's athlete would run over the athletes from the past because of the size and speed advantage.  Where as a current driver vs a driver from the past doesn't have such a distinct athletic advantage like in the other sports. Stick and ball sports require the same skills from one era to the next, but size and speed of the athlete changes the capabilities and the game as a whole.

You're exactly right.  Do you or anyone else remember hearing Steve Kinser say something had changed and the last few years he couldn't get the feel for the cars?  I thought I heard that some time ago, but I can't remember when or where.  I remember hearing that about Tony Stewart too.  An example of this (and again off topic) was during the years Jimmie Johnson was so dominant in NASCAR, the way I understand it is they were coil binding the cars.  Which from my understanding meant they would run really soft front springs and have the front coil springs completely compress or bottom out.  This meant there was basically no front suspension while the car was at speed.  Jimmie Johnson felt comfortable with this but many other drivers didn't, like Jeff Gordon and Dale Jr.  The advantage of this was they could get the nose of the car sucked right down flush with the racetrack all the way around the track.  I'm sure things like this happen all the time in sprint cars too that change the way they drive or feel.  I wonder if age has anything to do with making it harder to adapt?