Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Have late model purses historically been larger than sprint car purses?  If not, when and why did late models end up with so many more larger paying races?

By my count, there are 12 late model races that pay at least $25,000 to win on their schedule.  A few of those $50,000 and a two $100,000 to win shows.

I dont have any concrete numbers on how many sprint car shows pay $25,000 or more, but it would appear to substantially less than that? Kings Royal, Knoxville Nationals, National Open, Oval Nationals?

What are the biggest factors that make the economics of the two (late models and sprints) so different?

I think the reason why there are so many big paying late model shows is because historically, promoters had to pay up to get the big time guys, there wasn't a long standing sanction that guaranteed all the top names.

But weekly taxi cab tracks around here pay $800 to $1000 to win. Even Husets pays $2000 to win for 410s. The weekly late model purses are usualy about or a little less than what a 360 event pays.

Brian Birkhofer recently quit racing because he could not afford it even with all those big paying shows you talk about. Plus you need to look at what those races pay through the field and for last. Only one guy gets that "to win" money.

.......... how about a rules package that enables passing

.... instead of locked down slotted cars ............................... excluding Donnie!

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If you have never been to a big Late Model race I encourage it.  I went to the Dirt Track World Championships last year and I am going back this year. If you like to watch racing the big races are usually LOTS of door-door racing.  Last year the heats were 20 laps and I think the 2 B mains were 30 laps. They are packed with racing and TONS of people come to watch.

Oh, and LM teams bring 8-10 people per car plus the Modified guys bring another 6-8 people per car.  The pits are as packed as the grandstands. Typical sprint car team, 4-6.

I have said this before and believe it 100%.  The normal average guy does not connect with a sprint car like they do a LM.  Most LM's are still running a gas powered 350-400 chevy small blocks with a carb and they have fenders like a street stock.  Certain people identify with that more than a Alky burning fuel injected rocket with an upside-down airplane wing. Kind of like IndyCar and NASCAR, racers like IndyCar and the masses like NASCAR.

No offense, but the people watching is similar to being at the state fair, you never know what you will see.

Just my $0.02

DA

LM's have more big paying races because there is alot more of them. They are the top divison at  most dirt tracks in the country, prety much all of the south. In Pa they pay about what a 358 or 360 sprint car race pays which is about half of  a 410 purse. A top shelf WOO type LM engine costs in the same neighborhood as a 410 sprint motor.

A

Yes, they have more "to win" shows than Sprints do, but even then, a majority of those pay a pittance after 3rd place.

Their biggest races of the year many drivers and teams will tell you if you aren't a top 5 car, you might as well not attend.

If I remember correctly, the Dream pays $100,000 to win, $20,000 for 2nd, and $10,000 for 3rd and it keeps dropping hard after that too and the last 12 or 14 spots all pay the same (around $1200) and some positions only pay $5 more than the position behind them so you can finish 10 spots better than someone and get an extra $50 (and you might have finished 100 laps and they pulled in on lap 1).

I'd guess the overall price of the teams is about the same between LM and Sprints, but the Late Models are LIGHT YEARS behind in terms of professionalism (crew shirts, sponsors, etc.).

They may have big $$$ to win races, but they aren't exactly attracting sponsors to their cars or events (take Lucas Oil away (and they own a series), and they have ZERO sponsors that even most racefans have heard of).

"The normal average guy does not connect with a sprint car like they do a LM.  Most LM's are still running a gas powered 350-400 chevy small blocks with a carb and they have fenders like a street stock."

That was certainly true years ago when "stock cars" were actually versions of something you could buy at your local dealer, but nowadays they have nothing to do with real everyday drivers.... front wheel drive, anyone?

Those late models don't look any more like something you drive to work than a sprint car does. It just kills me to see pictures of them and they have "mustang"or "charger" on the front of the car yet they all look the same and none look anything like a mustang etc.

This isn't about handbags?!

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  The best race I've seen all year was the UMP Summernationals stop at Haubstadt. Those LM guys drive those cars for all they're worth, lots of passing and beatin' and bangin'. I enjoy the heck out of 'em. WoO's and Lucas Oil series seem to not buck heads when big shows come up so best drivers for both series are at the biggest races so fans get to see everybody. That's a good deal. Watch the Dream from last year and this year on youtube. Great racing.

No offense to LM, but almost ever LM race  I have been too, I was kinda bored, especially with the fast qualifer starting 1st in the heat races.   Only been to a couple of late models shows (tri state and quincy UMP Summer Nationals, a few quincy weekly shows, and a few late model shows on the west coast.

But I do understand they have die hard fans that prefer them over sprint cars.  One of the complaints I hear, they don't have starters, and they need to be push started.

Why do they have big purses, guessing they get more $ from sponsors/tv/fans/back gate that they can offer the $.

Not sure any car owner could survive on race purses alone today, even winning the big races (which only a handful due).  You likely either need a wealthy car owner or have good sponsors, or likely both.  Seems like racing is just an expenisive hobby for most, although a few drivers do make a good living doing it.  I wonder how many car owners actually make $, likely less than 5% (more likely less than 1%) in all of short track racing.

Anyway Cheers.  I always say support your local short track, whether it be Modifieds, LM's, non wing sprint cars/wings/midgets.   Seen good races for all (except lm so far.)   And more often than not, the local track is more exciting than the big tour events too.  Just my $.02, which is all its worth anyway.

Vande has it right,  look at overall purse and not just the winner's share.    

agree, their formats leave a lot to be desired at a majority of their races.

The major exception is the Late Model Nationals at Knoxville.  10 invert in heats - same point system as the Sprint Car Nationals makes for GREAT racing and reminds me of the Sprint Car Nationals of the 1980's (when a "good car" starting 10th in their heat could win almost every time).

They only invert 8 in the heats at Late Model Nationals Vande... and not a single one of the guys starting 8th won a heat race last year... best anybody did was 8th to 2nd.  Now that the facts are cleared up... I went to the Thurs qualifying night last year and the racing is actually pretty good -- especially in the heats (fast guys have to come from 8th to 3rd to transfer).  The Late Model Nationals actually pays through the field too, as you would expect from Knoxville... $40k to win, $20k, $10k.. 10th gets $5k.. $2,500 to start.  I'll prob try to go to a qualifying night again this year.  

Hey, if you enjoy Late Models, more power to ya!

ok, last year it was that way (I believe last year was the first year they used a "flight system" for heats.  Before that it was a 10 invert with 5 heats (same format the Sprint Nationals were back in the day, invert 10, top 4 transfer).

A majority of those preceding years, the heats were won from 9th and 10th (and the invert was 10 and a 12 lap heat race).  That's the main reason the crowd continues to grow (and there are fans that used to attend the Sprint Nationals that go to the LM Nationals instead).

I've never been disappointed in the racing (they used to invert the prelim feature nights 8, but they've changed that up the past couple of years as well due to driver complaints of being "penalized" for qualifying good).

Only form of dirt track racing I've been to where even the fans think the fast cars should start up front in everything.

I personally hope the NEVER go to a "flight system" for qualifying for the Sprint Nationals, IMO it actually hurts the racing.

I love both. I don't have any hard numbers to compare, but I think a top of the line rolling chassis late model would probably cost 25% more than a sprint (thats just a guess). There is a lot more to those things. Also, most of the big late model races that pay 20k plus are usually 50, 75, 100 laps long. That is a lot more wear and tear on your equipment than a sprint car feature.

Purses dwindle in sprints too for the few big races we have except for Knoxville. Kings Royal and National Open I think pay $12k for 2nd.

In regards to the number of high paying events, really we only have roughly eight with long-standing tradition (20 or more years) as high paying events:

World 100
Dirt Track World Championship
USA Nationals
North/South 100
Show-Me 100
Topless 100
Hillbilly 100

If you look at the locations of these events, they coincide with high concentration areas of Dirt Late Models (OH, KY, WI, AR, etc) where Dirt Late Models are considered the top class (some of these regions are now debatable like WI).  Carl Short owns two of these events (DTWC & Hillbilly) and was involved in series to run DLM's (S.T.A.R.S.).  Add in Eldora Speedway and Earl Baltes who also loved DLM's more than any other racing and his World 100 and later the Dream and nearly half of the big paying DLM long-standing events are driven by two men.

With race tracks now looking for more revenue and recognizing that big events are better than focusing on weekly racing, newer high-paying events have come into the fold:

Illini 100
Prairie Dirt Classic - was more regional event until expanded a few years ago
Dream
Silver Dollar Nationals
Knoxville Nationals

(Several big events either under $25K to win or have been dropped/modified:  Collossal 100, Big Kahuna, East Bay Final Night, National 100, Gopher 50, Pittsburgher 100, Commonwealth 100, Dixie Shootout, etc)

Not only are there more Dirt Late Models in the US (fact you can look up) - that typically also means a larger fan base to draw from for larger events meaning a better chance for a full grandstand if you can give your event several years to build and racing is good.  Not only that, the Lucas and WoO regulars only race 45 - 50 times a year - meaning there or more weekends available to run a major event.  With WoO Sprints locked up for 90+ events and other series scheduling regional events you don't have many weekends to select.  And with many tracks locked in with the WoO and paying $10K events to full or nearly full-capacity crowds... why pay the drivers more.  If you are getting the milk for free (reasonable price) why pay for the whole cow?

The good and bad with Dirt Late Models - they have a ton of high paying events as well as regional events.  Add up all the tracks offering $15 - $20K events as well and it gets staggering the number of events as well as the $5 - $10K events.  The issue, most are a Dolly Parton purse.  The Show-Me 100 with its 10% of winners purse to start used to be the beakon of hope for DLM racing but that was done away with once it move to Lucas Oil Speedway.  Compare the World 100 to Knoxville Nationals Sprint events - both pay out during the week, both have massive crowds with corporate backing - yet the World 100 payout each night, winners purse and through the field cannot hold a candle to the Knoxville Nationals Sprint event... sad really.  The purse structure is enough to keep DLM guys racing but not really validating the expense and time they put into their operations.

In terms of the aforementioned corporate sponsorship... ALL dirt racing... sprint or Dirt Late Model is a small business supported sport and we can thank our lucky stars for that fact.  It was mentioned about all the corporate sponsorship in sprints -outside of the NASCAR team owners (Stewart, Kahne, Larson, Stenhouse) bring in their associate sponsors so they can have exposure/association to their NASCAR stars who else has corporate sponsorship on their cars?  We have one NASCAR owner (Bowyer) in Dirt Late Model and he too brings corporate sponsorship - Georgia Boot,Peak, etc.  Dirt racing is still a tax haven for small/medium-sized business owners who enjoy the sport and love to compete and they would rather spend it here and have a little fun than pay into Uncle Sam.  Weather we want to admit it or not... racing, especially Dirt Racing, is a small-niche sport and is growing smaller each year as young kids are just not transitioning to it.  So, expecting corporate dollars to rain upon our sport is comical in the least and scary at most - look at what large corporate sponsors have done to the most redneck of sports - NASCAR.  Sure, it has made a lot of people rich (drivers, track owners, car owners, NASCAR execs, etc) but at a cost - racing is terrible, the average fan cannot afford events, watered-down drama, cookie-cutter tracks with losses like other traditional tracks, etc.  For me, I will keep our Dan Motter's, Mike Reeces, Ed Petroffs, JB Hunt, Chad & Jenn Clemens, etc as they are what makes Dirt Racing go around.

Respectfully Submitted,

Rich Olson

Rich Olson
FANS Fund - Founder
www.FANSFund.com