Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I've been attending sprint races for over 30 years and I am not a fan of the 50 lap race (just my opinion). The first 25 don't excite me at all anymore. I'm happy with 30 with no stop.

Saturday's show consisted of roughly 5 races and roughly 110-115 laps of racing and it took 5 hours to do all that. The older I get (not yet 50), the less I want to sit in grandstands and wait. Saturday could and should have been done by 11:00 easily even with the reworking of the track. It seemed way too heavy in my opinion for the five races we watched on Saturday. Again, hats off to the Dunkins for getting the show in on Thursday.

Not wanting to be attacked by haters, they run an unreal event and hats off for all of their efforts, especially with the weather. Keep the show moving is all I want for my money...my option is to stay home (or go somewhere else) and watch it on high definition like I do all other sporting events.

As a business owner, time is my most valuabe commodity and it's my choice of where to spend time away, that's what I'm contemplating after 15 years of attending the Nationals...

Think of the race as a twin feature race instead of 50 laps with a break at 25 laps.  Track work slowed down event and some of that was from the afternoon show.  I like the 50 laps and are you saying that if races would have gotten over at say 10:30 you would have gone back to work?

I have to admit, Saturday night's show did seem to take longer than usual.  I contribute it to not feeling well around the time the B feature started (don't eat the texas taters).  That break between the B and A seemed like it took FOREVER!  But normally I have no problem with it, so it may have just been in my head since my stomach was trying to ruin my Nationals!  

As far as the 50 laps, I am still unsure about how I feel on them.  As we saw last year, it does give anyone a chance to win the race regardless of starting position.  However, this years race was on the other end of the spectrum where the first half  just seemed like a 25 lap hot lap session (exaggeration of course).  It ultimately is getting a good position in the first half and going for it all in the second half.  Both ways have their pros and cons and I don't think either way will make EVERYONE happy.  The important thing is we get to see that A feature on Saturday night; it's still a great night either way.

I didn't mind it but that was the latest the Saturday show ended that I can remember in a lonnnng time. Don't expect the same next year unless rain puts the track behind the 8ball to begin with.

Someone more knowledgable than me needs to state some facts but how many laps can we expect to see a 900hp 410 circle Knoxville before we need to start worrying about fuel? This has been hashed out over and over again and I had thought that someone said 30 with out making everyone purchase larger tanks. 

Back to the topic, if memory serves me correctly most Saturday shows are over by 10-11 o clock. 

Keep It Real

Donny didn't seem to sit and wait during the first 25 laps of last years feature.

-Austin Rankin

Agree about the dragging on of the event on Saturday night.  For some reason it seemed excessive.  The couple of bad cleanups from wrecks didn't help--but they have had those before. 

I, on the other hand, like the 50 lapper--but just a matter of preference.  I also treat it like it is two, back-to-back 25 lappers. 

I think they will hear the rumblings and take care of the dragging on of the racing.  If they don't, they will definitely lose some people next year.  I heard a lot of people complaining about it.

I will be back next year on the other hand.

the track was good after the b. not sure y they needed to do more work on the track? 50 laps is great but i wish they would do fuel only at halfway, that way u would see who makes the right strategy call. two 25 lap sprints makes it too easy. just my opinion?

Just to back up the late Saturday night show. The Show they ran Sunday night had 71 cars take time trials, six heats and 2 B mains and the A main and the show was done by 10:30!!! The biggest race of the year does not need legend cars either!!!!  talk about watering down the biggest race of the year. Need to take a shout out to two young drivers Lee Jacobs and Sheldon Haudenshield, they both put on a great show. All in all another grear nationals. I'll be back for my 24th year.

The magic number I've always heard is one race lap (not pace laps, parade laps or caution laps) equals one gallon of fuel. I don't know how accurate that is, but that's been the word in the past from what I know. Anyone got any hard evidence facts on this?

Ask Frank

I don't get the sense that on a 33 gallon tank, they can comfortably go 30 green flag laps plus yellows and the parade laps. Brown said he had 5 gallons left in his 360 at the end of 25 laps in the 360 Nats.

Having such a tight window leads to bad options like throwing a red for fuel after the 1st yellow or a guy running out of fuel while leading.

I think the days of needing to change tires are gone w/ Goodyear but I like the 50 lap format. Makes no sense to have a 22 lap B main and a 30 lap A main.

Agreed on the last part. 30 laps is too short. I'd be fine with 40 and no stop. 

Also agree with others on no legends please. 

Just because I'm listing some negative things that could be better, does not change the fact that I wouldn't trade those 4 days for anything. 

the show was run in about 3 1/2 hours once cars hit the track. if they would of started at 7:15 it would of ended 10:45. I dont know If the rework after the day show could of been done quicker or not but I figure of all places they did what they had to do as quick as possible and I kind of expected the late start with the earlier show.

Other than the longer break before the A which is normal I think things really keep rolling. As one group was on the track the next was pushed up in staging right away. The E main guys got longer hot lap sessions since the track was wet but most got only about three laps and that really doesnt add that much time.

As far as the format I dont care either way but to me I felt in the first 25 after about lap 10 they were just holding positions and not running all out. Now I knew there was going to be another 25 that was going to be all out and will finish good.

I was hoping for an early exit also but it doesnt always work out. thought the show was pretty good overall and glad I attended.

Looked up definition of "sprint"......run at full speed over a short distance.  I prefer 25 laps at most tracks, 30 laps max.

I cannot understand thinking of "two 25 lappers".......huh, only 1 checkered flag, only 1 purse payout....beats me!!

I watched it on The Cushion from my sons house..I don't mind the 50 laps but no adjustments and only the right rear tire can be changed...during the red flag stop..Also don't bring them in the pits..Do it all on track  but NO adjustments to anything...

Totally agree.  Also, since they started over 2 hours late, most of the crowd was already bored to death.  Extremely poorly ran night of non-action.

The Trophy Cup (Knoxville Nationals are hands down the BIGGEST race of the year, but Trophy Cup is the best!, yeah, I said it) runs 50 laps w/ a fuel only stop. It makes it so guys like TK, Haud and Larson can make those amazing charges from the back to the front that is so entertaining.

The charges up through the field are much more entertaining and impressive when they don't have forever to get it done and get to put fresh tires on half way through.

Not to discount what Schatz did last year but just think of how many times a guy has come out of the B and raced into the top 5 in the 30 lap races without the benefit of a fresh tire when he got up into striking distance.

Just think back to 1990, Wolfgang might have won it from the D-Main if he had had another 20 laps and a fresh tire, of course the Singer under the hood might not have made it another 20 laps.

knoxville needed to make up for beer and hot dog sales from wednesday rain out.But ask Stickell they dont do that thats why i didnt leave for the track till 9:00

They wouldn't be able to go 40 laps on fuel though, they would need a fuel stop on a 40 lap race as well. I listened to Brown and Henderson say specifically that with parade laps and the feature you could comfortably do a 30 lap race at Knoxville but likely not more. You don't want to make it so its a fuel conservation thing either or then your really going to get boring racing or people would start running out of fuel and that would be frustrating to watch.

1 lap to 1 gallon of fuel is the rule of thumb I've always heard as well, at least on the Knoxville's 1/2 mile, on a smaller track it would be less of course.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

A 410 will use about 950 pounds per hour of fuel on average between 7000-8000 rpm.  That equates to .26 pounds per second (950/60min/60sec).  If the average lap time is 17 seconds it will burn 4.42 pounds of fuel per lap. (.26 x 17).  If a gallon of fuel weighs roughly 7 pounds, 4.42 pounds divided by 7 pounds equals .63 gallons per lap.  In 25 laps you would burn 15.75 gallons of fuel (25 x .63).  By the time you add start up, idling, warm up laps and a couple of cautions it averages out to be about 1 gallon per lap.  Better to have too much than too little as you won't get paid if you run out of fuel.  A 360 burns about .5 gallon per lap.

The days of being able to transfer through to the A main from the non-qualifiers are pretty much over as far as I am concerned.  This is no dis-credit to the Dunkin family - they did an outstanding job all weekend long (as usual).  But when you a preparing a track for a 50 lap feature, it is just too wet early to allow for enough passing through the D, C and B mains.  For example, lets take Donny Schatz's best lap being .5 seconds better than the field and stick him 21st in the C main.  We have to deduct .2 seconds for clean air.  He then has 15 laps at .3 seconds faster than the field to make up 7 spots and get a transfer.  If he made every lap perfect and the race ran non-stop his performance advantage would gain him 4.5 seconds.  (15 x .3)  Better get a good start!

Moving on to the B main with the same .3 second performance advantage is even tougher.  22 laps at .3 seconds gets him 6.6 seconds on the race track.  It would pretty much take a miracle to get through to the A from the back of with today's level of competition.

The equalizing factor is still the race track.  If I had it my way last Saturday night, they could have started earlier and with less water to give some guys who had tough luck on their qualifying nights a shot with a trickier race track.  Then, during all of their pomp and circumstance, driver intros and drawings re-work the track for the A main.  Anymore, you pretty much have to have a perfect qualifying night to get into the big show Saturday.  This is no discredit to the teams who did so accordingly either.  When the lap times are still in the 15-16 second range in the C and B mains it just makes it a lot harder to pass when the track still has that much speed in it.

$.02

MB

Rome wasn't built in a day......but they sure didn't
waste any time burning it down!