Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

When I say he had a superior car I think you are implying something that isn't intended. There are many teams that have equipment every bit as good. I never said nor implied that he has equipment no one else has. When I saw he had a superior car what I'm referring to his how his car handled. The car was set up beautifully. His car appeared to have no issues. Brandon, for instance, struggled on the restarts. Fri night McCreadie had the superior car. Owens remarked Fri night he has nothing for McCreadie. Sat night it was Larson. Both are Rumley cars and this team nailed the weekend.  My point is the decisions the crew makes about set up matter and that crew did a great job this weekend. Everyone seems to want to give Kyle full credit for putting that car in victory lane. I'm saying that car was very good and belonged there. No doubt Kyle got the job done and put it in victory lane but he couldn't have done it without them. It goes both ways. If the crew isn't that big of a deal and set up isn't critical so all it takes is putting Kyle in top notch equipment, by that definition he should have won everything he entered regardless of division over the last few years.  Give the crew the credit they deserve.  If you can't acnknowledge the crew's role in this win and that they deserve some credit, we definitely do not agree but as you said, we don't have to. Hopefully at some point before the end of the season Kyle gets back in a late model. 

Larson only had 20 laps of practice before the driveshaft broke in testing so he showed up at Port Royal with almost no laps let alone laps in competition.

The first night you could see him struggling through the middle of the turns. On the second night about half way into the feature the cars was so much better. 

One hell of a talent and makes watching late models interesting....and that's pretty hard to do

Agree, the setup of the car was very good.  However, I believe you are implying because he put it in victory lane, no one else could have possibly made the correct decisions and nailed the setup----because they didn't look like they were on rails. Would it be far fetched to say 10 other crews made nearly identical setup choices with great equipment?   It has become apparent to me that Kyle's crew, in no matter what car he drives, can miss the setup and still take it to victory lane.  I have seen his car out of shape and to the front just as many times as I've seen him run a flawless car and take it to the front.  He does not need the best setup----we should all know that by now.  

Let's compare Thursday night Saturday night.  They nailed McCreadie's car but not Kyle's?  McCreadie started with track position and had a flawless race.  Meanwhile, Kyle picked off cars to where he was in position for a possible 2nd place finish before he pounded the wall.  He passed Owens 2 times-----the best in the business right now.  That was with a car that "missed" the setup.  Fast forward to Saturday night.  McCreadie got nowhere near 2nd place.  Even though he finished in the same position Saturday night as Larson Thursday night, he was never a threat to get to the front.  I believe no one has the ability to make a car look hooked up and on rails as Larson does.  He has won 34 or 35 races in 4 different types of cars in 6 different sanctioning bodies this year.  No one can continue to tell me he has    1.  Superior equipment at every event---maybe the best of the best, but not superior to what others are running.  2.  His crew always nails the setup over every other crew.  That's all just silly and unrealistic.  

Did Rumley nail the setup all weekend better than any other crew?  Possibly.  How would we ever know?  Kyle could have been .2 quicker in Owen's car.  We don't know.  Bottom line, the sample size is big enough now to stop saying he's getting lucky.  

(BTW---I appreciate the friendly debate without any name calling.  Refreshing for once)   

Your question - Would it be far fetched to say 10 other crews made nearly identical setup choices with great equipment? Yes it is far fetched. You may already know this but for any who doesn't I'll explain my answer. Compared to a late model, a sprint car is a pretty basic car with 4 shocks and 4 bars on the car as points of adjustability. Yes there are a multitude of other things to deal with but I'm talking just the basic car itself. With each shock and each bar, a crew chief has a myriad of options. In a late model there are 6 shocks, 6 springs, 4 bars in the rear and a J bar. Again, each one of them has a plethora of options. The likelihood of even two cars on the track being nearly identical with all those adjustment points is somewhere between slim and none and you haven't even looked at anything else. Even Kyle and McCreadie's cars I suspect would be close but not nearly identical. Why? Driver preference. Every driver likes a different feel in their car and a good crew chief is going to cater to what feel his driver prefers. What is good for one may not be for another. Just watching Kyle and Brandon's cars Sat night, one thing I mentioned before is Brandon struggling on restarts. If I'm betting I'm thinking Brandon was running a harder tire than Kyle because it took Brandon longer to get going after each restart. Tires are a whole other ball game as there are different compound choices as well as stagger and pressure options.  All those choices matter because each does something different. Again, the likelihood that two crew chiefs through all those options have set their cars up the same is extremely unlikely. This isn't even taking into account that Kyle was in a Longhorn and Brandon a Rocket chassis and yes there is a difference. The best anology I can think of is this and I'll concede it's probably not great :  If you want to achieve the number 4 how do you get there?  2 + 2, 3 +1, 1+3 you get the idea. There are options. They are all working towards the same goal, making speed with a good handling car and there are multiple ways to get there it's just on some nights 2 + 2 works better than anything else. I've also seen comments on here about Kyle only running a limited number of laps, as few as 20, prior to Thursday night. I've heard quite a different tale and I'd like to know the true story not that it really matters at this point. In late model circles it had been swirling for some time that tracks were being rented and he was testing with those tests reportedly going hundreds of laps during each test and that multiple tests were taken over a two to three week period. I've heard a similar tale although not quite as extensive as the late model about his preparation for silver crown.  I hope the above gives you some sense of why I credit Kyle's car as a major contributing factor in his success last weekend. Plowing through the sea of options they had, they clearly chose the right ones because he car wasn't just good, it was damn good. 

Your question - Would it be far fetched to say 10 other crews made nearly identical setup choices with great equipment? Yes it is far fetched. You may already know this but for any who doesn't I'll explain my answer. Compared to a late model, a sprint car is a pretty basic car with 4 shocks and 4 bars on the car as points of adjustability. Yes there are a multitude of other things to deal with but I'm talking just the basic car itself. With each shock and each bar, a crew chief has a myriad of options. In a late model there are 6 shocks, 6 springs, 4 bars in the rear and a J bar. Again, each one of them has a plethora of options. The likelihood of even two cars on the track being nearly identical with all those adjustment points is somewhere between slim and none and you haven't even looked at anything else. Even Kyle and McCreadie's cars I suspect would be close but not nearly identical. Why? Driver preference. Every driver likes a different feel in their car and a good crew chief is going to cater to what feel his driver prefers. What is good for one may not be for another. Just watching Kyle and Brandon's cars Sat night, one thing I mentioned before is Brandon struggling on restarts. If I'm betting I'm thinking Brandon was running a harder tire than Kyle because it took Brandon longer to get going after each restart. Tires are a whole other ball game as there are different compound choices as well as stagger and pressure options.  All those choices matter because each does something different. Again, the likelihood that two crew chiefs through all those options have set their cars up the same is extremely unlikely. This isn't even taking into account that Kyle was in a Longhorn and Brandon a Rocket chassis and yes there is a difference. The best anology I can think of is this and I'll concede it's probably not great :  If you want to achieve the number 4 how do you get there?  2 + 2, 3 +1, 1+3 you get the idea. There are options. They are all working towards the same goal, making speed with a good handling car and there are multiple ways to get there it's just on some nights 2 + 2 works better than anything else. I've also seen comments on here about Kyle only running a limited number of laps, as few as 20, prior to Thursday night. I've heard quite a different tale and I'd like to know the true story not that it really matters at this point. In late model circles it had been swirling for some time that tracks were being rented and he was testing with those tests reportedly going hundreds of laps during each test and that multiple tests were taken over a two to three week period. I've heard a similar tale although not quite as extensive as the late model about his preparation for silver crown.  I hope the above gives you some sense of why I credit Kyle's car as a major contributing factor in his success last weekend. Plowing through the sea of options they had, they clearly chose the right ones because he car wasn't just good, it was damn good. 

That is why I said "nearly"----I know being identical is impossible.  But, crews with the same thought process---there were likely many crews who had the same thought process, and applied the same logic when setting up the cars.  And, I understand why the setup will vary from driver to driver.  The example I always use is the setup for Brad Sweet vs. any other outlaw driver.  Brad drives his car totally different than anyone else.  Either that, or they have an orange light mounted in the rear to appear as though he is riding the brakes the entire way.  

You mention Brad Sweet and his orange light. There is a perfect example to illustrate my point even further. Monteith is known for the orange glow locally but obviously you don't see it with everybody. The orange glow is seen in the rear but specificially the left rear. You may get a little in the right but not much. That is because the rear brake on the left side is set with more pressure than the brake on the right. As he corners and brake is applied, more brake is applied to the left side so it also helps turn the car as it corners. Other drivers absolutley hate this. I only touched on just a few of the adjustments on these cars but there are so so many whether we are talking sprint cars or late models. Just like the brake adjustment creating the orange glow, some are a personal preference depending on how a driver likes to drive. Bottom line, there are simply too many variables for two cars to be identical or even nearly identicial. Even on Sat night if you had two exactly identicial cars with the only difference a different tire compounds and different stagger, those cars are going to be quite different to race. Sat night Brandon was good, very good in fact but his car didn't rise to the level of damn good. They missed the set up by just a little. Using my prior anology of reaching four, they got to four but an element or two of how they got to four wasn't the preferred one and hence they were just a little bit off. Let me ask you this - If Larson doesn't win (sprint car) or let's go further than that finishes say outside of the top 5, why has that happened? 

He's right.  It was the tires, shocks, J bar, and set up.  Anyone of us would have won in that car that night.  Hell, we wouldn't have even needed the second night.  Larson is a non-driving hack.

I highly doubt that Sweet has a right rear brake. LOL

That is why I said "nearly"----I know being identical is impossible.  But, crews with the same thought process---there were likely many crews who had the same thought process, and applied the same logic when setting up the cars.  And, I understand why the setup will vary from driver to driver.  The example I always use is the setup for Brad Sweet vs. any other outlaw driver.  Brad drives his car totally different than anyone else.  Either that, or they have an orange light mounted in the rear to appear as though he is riding the brakes the entire way.  

You mention Brad Sweet and his orange light. There is a perfect example to illustrate my point even further. Monteith is known for the orange glow locally but obviously you don't see it with everybody. The orange glow is seen in the rear but specificially the left rear. You may get a little in the right but not much. That is because the rear brake on the left side is set with more pressure than the brake on the right. As he corners and brake is applied, more brake is applied to the left side so it also helps turn the car as it corners. Other drivers absolutley hate this. I only touched on just a few of the adjustments on these cars but there are so so many whether we are talking sprint cars or late models. Just like the brake adjustment creating the orange glow, some are a personal preference depending on how a driver likes to drive. Bottom line, there are simply too many variables for two cars to be identical or even nearly identicial. Even on Sat night if you had two exactly identicial cars with the only difference a different tire compounds and different stagger, those cars are going to be quite different to race. Sat night Brandon was good, very good in fact but his car didn't rise to the level of damn good. They missed the set up by just a little. Using my prior anology of reaching four, they got to four but an element or two of how they got to four wasn't the preferred one and hence they were just a little bit off. Let me ask you this - If Larson doesn't win (sprint car) or let's go further than that finishes say outside of the top 5, why has that happened? 

I believe this to be true-----If you led Brad Sweet around the pits in a blindfold and told him to pick out a car and run it, he would jump in, and if the brakes weren't set just like he likes them, he will struggle all night.  The setup of his car is very important.  I only use him as an example because he uses the crap out of that left rear brake and it's easy to see he uses the brake and throttle in a different way than everyone else.  (and no knock against Sweet, because he can wheel a car)

If you led Kyle Larson around the pits in a blindfold, and told him to pick out the car he was going to run, I don't believe his setup is going to matter anywhere near as much as the other drivers in the field.  He would have a better shot at winning in a random setup than almost anyone else I can think of---actually, anyone I can think of.   It is pretty obvious from watching him over the last 10 years that he can drive a car that is tighter than anyone else's.  He can drive a car that is out of control loose better than anyone else.  And, if you give him a car that is near perfect, you might as well start covering the race for second place.   Does that mean he is going to win with a garbage car?  No.  But, he will get more out of it than anyone else, that is pretty obvious for anyone who has been watching.  

So, will I give credit to Rumley for a great car and fantastic setup?  Sure.  Will I go as far as to say he beat everyone else in setup that weekend?  I can't tell you that.  He had the most talented driver I've ever seen in the seat.  He looked perfect because he never had to chase anyone in front of him.  I will tell you, if he would have been passed, I believe his line would have looked much different as he would have been all over the track.  Then people would have been saying he looked uncomfortable when in fact he would be merely searching for a new line more frantically than anyone else I've ever seen.  He does not need the car to feel perfect as he adapts to the car and its handling with natural, God-given talent.  Paul Silva has most likely nailed the setup multiple times this year.  But, it would be foolish to claim he has "out-set-up" everyone in the pits at every race they've won.  There are some pretty well-funded teams with some very smart sprint car minds in the pits at every show.  And the same holds true for the Late Model race at Port Royal.   

I highly doubt that Sweet has a right rear brake. LOL

I believe this to be true-----If you led Brad Sweet around the pits in a blindfold and told him to pick out a car and run it, he would jump in, and if the brakes weren't set just like he likes them, he will struggle all night.  The setup of his car is very important.  I only use him as an example because he uses the crap out of that left rear brake and it's easy to see he uses the brake and throttle in a different way than everyone else.  (and no knock against Sweet, because he can wheel a car)

If you led Kyle Larson around the pits in a blindfold, and told him to pick out the car he was going to run, I don't believe his setup is going to matter anywhere near as much as the other drivers in the field.  He would have a better shot at winning in a random setup than almost anyone else I can think of---actually, anyone I can think of.   It is pretty obvious from watching him over the last 10 years that he can drive a car that is tighter than anyone else's.  He can drive a car that is out of control loose better than anyone else.  And, if you give him a car that is near perfect, you might as well start covering the race for second place.   Does that mean he is going to win with a garbage car?  No.  But, he will get more out of it than anyone else, that is pretty obvious for anyone who has been watching.  

So, will I give credit to Rumley for a great car and fantastic setup?  Sure.  Will I go as far as to say he beat everyone else in setup that weekend?  I can't tell you that.  He had the most talented driver I've ever seen in the seat.  He looked perfect because he never had to chase anyone in front of him.  I will tell you, if he would have been passed, I believe his line would have looked much different as he would have been all over the track.  Then people would have been saying he looked uncomfortable when in fact he would be merely searching for a new line more frantically than anyone else I've ever seen.  He does not need the car to feel perfect as he adapts to the car and its handling with natural, God-given talent.  Paul Silva has most likely nailed the setup multiple times this year.  But, it would be foolish to claim he has "out-set-up" everyone in the pits at every race they've won.  There are some pretty well-funded teams with some very smart sprint car minds in the pits at every show.  And the same holds true for the Late Model race at Port Royal.   

I would agree with mostly everything you've said. Has he won when he hasn't had the best car? Absolutely. If he won was  his car at least close? Yes. In a sprint car Kyle's close enough is much broader than anyone else. In a sprint car he has two traits that stand out to me. When he runs different lines, he is instinctively able to tell which line is fastest even when the differences from one to another are in tenths of a second. Many drivers need a stop watch to make that distinction when the difference is so small. The other item that stands out is his corner entry speed. He enters so much faster and that enables him to carry more speed throughout the corner. I have never said that Kyle has only won when his car has been the best and never would make such a statement. On Saturday night though, I still feel he had the best car in the house. It's no disrespect to any driver to say they won with a better car. I see that as throwing some love to the crew who so often go unnoticed. I know this is a sprint car board but I do like late models especially at that level and I try to keep up with what's going on. When you see a late model operating like that and are able to see it in person and not just on TV or the internet it's just pretty to watch. We don't get that quality of late models in our area near enough.  

Sprint cars are simple compared to late models as far as adjustments and suspension mechanics