Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Hi all, couple questions.

Can anyone give a run down to what it would cost to run the full ASCS National Tour? Not for a top tier team, like what you could do it with. Say if someone was to have a go at it could it be done with motors that aren’t $40,000 etc.

What does The Outlaws pay like for tow money, non qualifiers and all the extra stuff? Thinking of some of the “smaller” teams that might not make it in the A main every time, example when Shark Racing started out (Doing an awesome job though!). How would it work for those that aren’t in the A or top 10 every night?

I would look at it this way, what is your budget on equipment? Car wise (no engine) your equipment cost is going to be pretty much the same for a competitive ACSC car or a WoO/AllStars car. Engine wise commiting to running a series I would say you need a minumum of 3 engines. ASCS you could probably do it with 2 but you would spend part of the season with only one engine in the trailer with the possibility of missing several races.  

One thing to remember it costs the same to get to the track regardless if you are towing to a local 360 race or a WoO race. Operating cost is probably $800-1000 a night to run a 360 and $1000-$1400 a night to run a 410, that is assuming you wreck nothing and you run your 360 20 nights with no problems and your 410 for 15 nights with no problems. If you try to shortcut money in places your will have issues in other places. 

Lots of other variables also, small snippit the way I see it. 

A few years ago someone on this forum said that the WoO paid $800 a race night for tow money, it was a questiion about Jacob Allen and Logan S. and whether they both get tow money because they have just one transporter for both teams and the answer was, yes, they get $800 each. The one transporter didn't matter which it shouldn't.  A neat idea by the HoF great Bobby Allen to save the hard to find money, but limits you on parts and backups.  

The All Star series has their tow money on their website.  I looked at a recent race and the first 5 cars listed received $300 each, the next five cars received $200 each and the last 5 listed (total of 15) received $100.  Not a lot but better than pre-Smoke.  

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With no actual experience I would agree with what others have said, that the cost of running ASCS vs. WoO is probably pretty close the same. If you don't care about results and are just looking to race for a job you are probably going to be really poor either way, but are going to be less poor on the Outlaws. With some of the far out there tracks they go to you would make a bunch of shows I'm sure even with a 12 degree motor just because they wouldn't have a full field or would only have slightly more than a full field of which you could possibly beat 2-3 cars that night to get in the show.

If you want to be remotely competitive is where the difference is. Being remotely competitive on the ASCS would be a lot more attainable to the average person vs. the WoO. Probably $100k+ difference or more. You could as the above poster said probably find two decent used ASCS motors for the cost of one decent used 410 motor. You could run the entire season on the two if you had a good maintenance program and got a little bit lucky and had a builder that could turn around your motors quickly. Were it me I would find a cheap third motor (they are out there in the 10-15k range, not a hammer but would get you on the track if the worst case scenario were to happen). I think you could spend less than 200k on a full operation with 2 cars, 3 motors, transporter, and the tools you would need, etc. You could probably easily run 80 races a year with one or two rebuilds if you rotated all the motors correctly. The ASCS is set up well in that you can probably take a bunch of full weekends off to do full maintenance of the car including teardown, etc. and still hit a ton of races because the National Race weekends are often times flanked by regional events nearby. 

I guess why do you ask?  The entire question of costs comes down to 3 things.  1)Are you going to learn and get laps at a high level or going to become a professional racer fulltime because you have talent.

2)Do you have access to an engine builder and engines?

3)Do you have a limit on your budget?

ASCS pays $500 for tow money for top 10 teams so 11th on back are nothing.  WoO Platinum is $800, although their are some variables with that.  If you had 3 ASCS engines, you can easily run a season, assuming you aren't leaning them down and running them really hard.  You also can buy a used engine for engines 2-3 and still be "competitive".  If you do that, and don't have any rebuild costs or just 1 rebuild, you should be able to handle the 45 nights. You could run it with 2, but with any engine failure you might have a problem.  Given that you can easily pick up a used 360 for 15-18k, you may as well have 3.

With the Outlaws, you really need 4 engines, and you will be looking at minimum 2 rebulds if not 4 rebuilds. 

You also would be looking at some tough nights making the A main as the PA swing is tough, Ohio is tough and Knoxville is tough.  Everywhere else you get in to the A but of your 90 nights PA is 10, Knoxville is 5 and Ohio is 6, so 21 nights of very tough racing.  In contrast, the ASCS deal is usually running smaller car counts and with the exception of the PA trip, you probably will make the A more that not.

What is your background?  Do you have someone who is fairly well off that would like to see you succeed? If not you'd likely be better off working for someone to gain experience and to learn the political side of racing. By that I mean learning who to talk too and what to say that would entice those to help you out. Notice the guys who've done well, they speak well and look good doing it. 

I don't know much about this, but I'm guessing that if you have to ask, you can't afford it....

Nah really? Last I checked when you work towards something you get as much advice and learn and research every bit you can.

If you can’t afford it you, ask as many questions and learn as much as possible because being younger then 20 I don’t think I’d be attempting it myself anyway.

Plus things change for people in the way of finances if you’re lucky enough or work hard.

Yeah not really. We do enough now to race a Limited Sprintcar but certainly expanding my contacts is one of the main things.

Many Thanks!

Good luck kid.  Looks like you are at least starting out the right way-----gather some info, draw up a budget, do some networking, and then it either works out or it doesn't.  Need more 20 year olds with some drive and initiative anyways.  And hey, if you figure it all out and it doesn't pencil out to work for you, then at least you looked into it and did it the right way. 

Someone brought up an excellent point about Shark Racing with 2 haulers in the trailer.  Know anyone else thinking of trying it out?  Share hauler, crew, spare motors, etc. 

Don't mean to be a downer, but the road will eat your lunch. What you really need is to find an area where you can race a minimum of two nights a week and gain the initial experience needed to have a successful full time racing career. It starts with desire, but ends with knowledge and experience. I'm sure wherever you would go to set up a new racing home (if needed) you will find those with experience that are willing to help with the learning curve. Don't get in too big of a hurry. Pace yourself, and as you find yourself picking up the pace at race time you will build the confidence you need to climb the ladder and branch out in whatever direction you feel you can be successful at. I think you'll find that those who are willing to put out the dollars neccessary to invest in your future, are going to first want a past they believe warrants the investment. Don't ruin that chance by risking failure right off the bat.  Good luck!

What Blazer said.....

An area with an ASCS regional series might be a good bet to start out, especially if you are already running Limited Sprints then a logical step up would be regional/local 360s. Warrior Region, Gulf South and Red River regions all have decent purses and decent competition. The Frontier region has some decent drivers, but lower purses and lower overall competition -- plus a shorter season.

If you are wanting to get into ASCS then I would say the Texas area is a good area to go to and run local. If you are wanting to run 410s I would say Ohio, or West PA (Attica/Fremont or Lernerville/PPMS/Sharon). West PA may be best because you wouldn't have to travel far to get extra early and late season races in Central PA. CA has a lot of 360 racing too but a lot more competition, I think it would probably be harder to crack the field in SCCT races than in ASCS Regional shows. 

Good reply to my pessimistic comment! Hope you do well, good luck

Good tips and I was gonna suggest Ohio to the OP.  You have lots of optins in a tight geographic locale.  If it's Eatern OH you could mix in Sharon, Lernerville, etc.  Ohio you have 305s too.  That'd be a good region.  In addition, outside of Eldora you've got smaller, slick tracks in OH which theoretically could be easier on engines and you wouldn't need a big banger of an engine like you might in Central PA if you run Port and WG. 

agree with Blazer00 the road will eat your lunch. One of the reasons Bobbt Allen and the Shark team could make it is the fact Bob has contacts all across the US

They stayed with these folks as much as they could and saved money that way. I am sure they would have struggled much harder then what they  did in the beginning 

and they did struggle mightily at times

You may want to reach out to either Clyde knipp or jac haudenschild for the lowdown on running a car at the national level. 

Whatever funds Clyde Knipp started with when he hit the road with the outlaws, would have sure done him better had he just went a ways north to begin with and ran Knoxville for three years. And he may have been better off to have started there in the 360 class. As it is now, he appears to really be struggling to get in to a car full time. Too bad, because he definately has the desire to be a racer. I do hope things will turn around for him, but it's going to be tough because he really has little growth to show for three years with the Outlaws. We might understand that, and how difficult it was, but sponsors with money probably won't.

That’s very true! I really like how you can run weekly at the same track there, like Attica I think? That seems like a good way to get plenty of experience with little to know travel cost.

Thankyou!

Also I great idea! I like the logical step up as you said, which is what I was more leaning to and wasn’t to keen on jumping straight into the deep end as that can prove to be very costly and difficult!

Thankyou!