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Topic: ASCS/Racesaver Engine questions ... Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 1   of  18 replies
Aces&Eights
December 18, 2017 at 01:07:12 PM
Joined: 04/02/2016
Posts: 55
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What is the typical HP of an ASCS 360 engine?

Second, what are the max RPM's for the ASCS 360 and the Racesaver 305?

Third, Is the ASCS head and the SUPR spec head the exact same head?


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.


racefanigan
December 19, 2017 at 08:31:08 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 97
Reply

It depends on what you want to spend. You can have an ASCS engine built to have 660-670 HP for a reasonable price in my opinionprobably $20k or even less, but its not going to set the world on fire anymore. There are ASCS 360s that are pushing 720 - 730+ true HP I think, for upwards of $35k+,  (some builders claim that there were some 770 HP engines, which I could somewhat believe,  and there was rumor that there was a 800 HP ASCS motor at one time, but I'm not buying it, as most every dyno tells a different story and I for one am not sure how much more power can be put out of a naturally aspirated 360 cubic inch motor, but I'm no engine bulder so what do I know.) One thing I do remember reading at one point is that a lot of engines lose up to 10% HP because of improper tuning, which translates to 70 HP on a 700 HP engine, (Kelly, is this roughly close?) so your 700HP engine might not always be running at 700HP every time if you end up missing a pill size or a couple pounds on the High Speed.  You can turn an ASCS Motor just about whatever you want. in 2015 the ASCS 360 that I ran I turned no harder than 84-8500, but there was also one locally that for sure was hitting 9000 regularly, and I only know that because the driver was complaining one night because it wasn't hitting 9K.

Racesaver motors aare likely about the 440-460 range, lower end of that if you build one of the $5000 engines like the class was designed to be run, and higher end if you are one of the few that build a $20k Racesaver, I would say that the majority of Racesaver engines, at least in my area, are around the $10-$15K mark, probably right around 450 HP. With the right valve train, I've seen them turn 8k RPM, though the one that I ran in 2015, we built for a total of $10k with a used block and injections,  we won with it and it didn't like turning over 7K.

Not sure on the ASCS head and the SUPR head, but I would imagine that they aren't the same? I don't know, but Brodix basically made the ASCS head spec for sprint car racing with the ASCS logo stamped all over it. Maybe Kelly (Wesmar) can shed a little bit of light on that subject.

 

 

 



Aces&Eights
December 19, 2017 at 09:32:01 AM
Joined: 04/02/2016
Posts: 55
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on December 19 2017 at 08:31:08 AM

It depends on what you want to spend. You can have an ASCS engine built to have 660-670 HP for a reasonable price in my opinionprobably $20k or even less, but its not going to set the world on fire anymore. There are ASCS 360s that are pushing 720 - 730+ true HP I think, for upwards of $35k+,  (some builders claim that there were some 770 HP engines, which I could somewhat believe,  and there was rumor that there was a 800 HP ASCS motor at one time, but I'm not buying it, as most every dyno tells a different story and I for one am not sure how much more power can be put out of a naturally aspirated 360 cubic inch motor, but I'm no engine bulder so what do I know.) One thing I do remember reading at one point is that a lot of engines lose up to 10% HP because of improper tuning, which translates to 70 HP on a 700 HP engine, (Kelly, is this roughly close?) so your 700HP engine might not always be running at 700HP every time if you end up missing a pill size or a couple pounds on the High Speed.  You can turn an ASCS Motor just about whatever you want. in 2015 the ASCS 360 that I ran I turned no harder than 84-8500, but there was also one locally that for sure was hitting 9000 regularly, and I only know that because the driver was complaining one night because it wasn't hitting 9K.

Racesaver motors aare likely about the 440-460 range, lower end of that if you build one of the $5000 engines like the class was designed to be run, and higher end if you are one of the few that build a $20k Racesaver, I would say that the majority of Racesaver engines, at least in my area, are around the $10-$15K mark, probably right around 450 HP. With the right valve train, I've seen them turn 8k RPM, though the one that I ran in 2015, we built for a total of $10k with a used block and injections,  we won with it and it didn't like turning over 7K.

Not sure on the ASCS head and the SUPR head, but I would imagine that they aren't the same? I don't know, but Brodix basically made the ASCS head spec for sprint car racing with the ASCS logo stamped all over it. Maybe Kelly (Wesmar) can shed a little bit of light on that subject.

 

 

 



Thanks for all that info, on the website and a few other places I've seen the ASCS head and SUPR head listed like they were one in the same.  I know this will call for speculation on your part, but what would you expect power wise from an average ASCS engine if it had a 2 brl carb instead of injection?  Where I am there are ZERO sprints, but mucho late models of every type, from 602 to Open Comp Super.  We also have quite a few SUPR/SAS spec late models.  I'm wanting to start a NON-wing sprint class that is exciting to watch but not crazy expensive.  I don't like the 602 idea some are doing up north, the 604 is ok, but I'd rather the class not be exclusively crate anything, but inclusive.  The UMSS has a package I like thats inclusive, but they are also in an area that already had sprints.  I was looking at possibly utilizing the ASCS/SUPR head, that way if a guy wants to sell it later there is a market from late models.  I was also considering using a 2 brl carb like the UMSS/Joe Hunt sprints use as well as having an RPM limit(7200) with a claim rule on the ignition box.  Just trying to get an idea on where I'd be power wise if we run this package.

 

360 ASCS/SUPR heads

2 brl carb w/HVH intake

RPM limit 7200

Claimable ignition box

Alcohol

Inspection holes in oil pan and intake.

 


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

Wesmar
December 20, 2017 at 09:15:37 AM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 579
Reply

A killer 360 Chevy engine will be around 710-715 horsepower.  A Ford ASCS engine makes about 15-17 more horsepower.  At least that's what it showed on our dyno a couple years ago. 

You are correct racefan, you can turn whatever RPM's you want according to what gear you run.  Most of these guys turn them about 8,200-9,000.  Some guys turn them up more.  On the majority of the engines the power peaks out at 7,800 RPM's, after that the power falls off dramatically.  I asked Jimmy Carr a few years ago why he was turning his engine so tight on Tony's car (as I'm not a crew chief) and he said it was to get the car to come out of the corner harder.  I'm assuming that's still true today?

I believe the ASCS and SUPR head are the same but not 100% sure.

 



Aces&Eights
December 20, 2017 at 09:35:14 AM
Joined: 04/02/2016
Posts: 55
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 20 2017 at 09:15:37 AM

A killer 360 Chevy engine will be around 710-715 horsepower.  A Ford ASCS engine makes about 15-17 more horsepower.  At least that's what it showed on our dyno a couple years ago. 

You are correct racefan, you can turn whatever RPM's you want according to what gear you run.  Most of these guys turn them about 8,200-9,000.  Some guys turn them up more.  On the majority of the engines the power peaks out at 7,800 RPM's, after that the power falls off dramatically.  I asked Jimmy Carr a few years ago why he was turning his engine so tight on Tony's car (as I'm not a crew chief) and he said it was to get the car to come out of the corner harder.  I'm assuming that's still true today?

I believe the ASCS and SUPR head are the same but not 100% sure.

 



Thank you, I'm learning a lot.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

MoOpenwheel
December 20, 2017 at 09:59:54 AM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 466
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 20 2017 at 09:15:37 AM

A killer 360 Chevy engine will be around 710-715 horsepower.  A Ford ASCS engine makes about 15-17 more horsepower.  At least that's what it showed on our dyno a couple years ago. 

You are correct racefan, you can turn whatever RPM's you want according to what gear you run.  Most of these guys turn them about 8,200-9,000.  Some guys turn them up more.  On the majority of the engines the power peaks out at 7,800 RPM's, after that the power falls off dramatically.  I asked Jimmy Carr a few years ago why he was turning his engine so tight on Tony's car (as I'm not a crew chief) and he said it was to get the car to come out of the corner harder.  I'm assuming that's still true today?

I believe the ASCS and SUPR head are the same but not 100% sure.

 



Kellly, how much HP would you estimae some that are out there now are making?  I'm sure you've seen some "good" ones.  

You're right on gear.  A lot of guys run a lot of gear.  So much that it seems they run out of speed down the straight away.  I've never seen that it really helped us that much.  We're usually just as fast in the low 8s versus high 8s.    



Wesmar
December 20, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 579
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on December 20 2017 at 09:59:54 AM

Kellly, how much HP would you estimae some that are out there now are making?  I'm sure you've seen some "good" ones.  

You're right on gear.  A lot of guys run a lot of gear.  So much that it seems they run out of speed down the straight away.  I've never seen that it really helped us that much.  We're usually just as fast in the low 8s versus high 8s.    



  As mentioned above they are around 710-715



dryslk
December 22, 2017 at 07:43:34 AM
Joined: 02/09/2005
Posts: 45
Reply

I was told years ago that  670 > 690 was a good ASCS engine .We have had engines  that builders have claimed to make  700 += but when run on a superflow dyno & compensated for altitude & air conditions the number wasnt close . There are A LOT of Happy DYNOS out there . I wonder about Running motors over 8200 when they stop making power @ 7800 .  R we just using up the Motor &  should we be looking @ Chassis setup to get us off the corners ???  Just my >02 



racefanigan
December 22, 2017 at 08:21:31 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 97
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dryslk on December 22 2017 at 07:43:34 AM

I was told years ago that  670 > 690 was a good ASCS engine .We have had engines  that builders have claimed to make  700 += but when run on a superflow dyno & compensated for altitude & air conditions the number wasnt close . There are A LOT of Happy DYNOS out there . I wonder about Running motors over 8200 when they stop making power @ 7800 .  R we just using up the Motor &  should we be looking @ Chassis setup to get us off the corners ???  Just my >02 



I think its more of a total speed/time to get to that total speed equilbrium thing. Its more prevelent in 305 racing, a little less in 360 and even less in 410 racing. a 305 for example. it may quit making power at a certain RPM, some of them will turn 8000 though. We will use mine for example, the motors seemed like it wanted to run out at 7000 to 7200 RPM. they dont pull the weight as hard, like, its not like they will go from 5300 to 7000 at a snap. we would gear ours high, because instead of turning 5300 RPM through the corner, we were turning 5600 and lessening the time it takes to get up to 7000. granted, gearing high takes away from MPH, it can help if you hit it right. I could be up to 7000-7200 rpm at the flag stand and maximizing my speed, where others were at 6500 and still trying to get to their peak. In the gap from the corner to the flagstand, we were in the power band, and even closer to it than others in the corner, where we could make up time.

Same goes for 360 racing. you could be running a 6.28 gear at husets and hit 8400 with 6200 through the corner, or you could be running a 6.44 and be hitting 8600 with 6400 through the corner, and the higher gear will be closer to the power band and hit it before the others, giving you a pull before the other guy, that is where you can make up some time, but you are sacrificing a bit of MPH from peak. By the time they get at their peak, you are already there, The motor may run out right before you hit the corner, but you were able to pull on the guy with a lower gear from corner exit to the flagstand.

410s the same concept still applies, but not as drastic in my opinion, as they can get up to speed quicker. think of it like this, a a 1550 lb car with 450 HP, a 1500 lb car with 700HP, and a 1400 lb car with 900 HP, which one will get to its peak first?

Of course, then we get into the torque curve debate, which also helps get off the corner, but it takes you longer to get from the torque curve, of lets say 5700 RPM, up to 8500 RPM, so I dont believe it does any better than running a higher gear to be closer to your "Peak".

Unless I'm thinking about this wrong, lest we forget that even though a motors peak HP numbers are right about 7800 RPM, the car is still going faster at 84-8600 RPM, granted you arent gaining as much as the HP numbers do drop, but that much more RPM is turning the tires that much more, as it is a completely fixed setup. That extra 7000 RPM, will turn the tires X many more times in that minute, again, unless I am thinking about this all wrong. You just arent gaining as much with that extra RPM as there is less power behind the revolution.



MoOpenwheel
December 22, 2017 at 09:14:35 AM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 466
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 20 2017 at 10:38:15 AM

  As mentioned above they are around 710-715



Man, can't get Kelly to bite....    

Maybe I should have been more specific and said motors running ASCS races.   Smile   



Wesmar
December 22, 2017 at 12:16:01 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 579
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: MoOpenwheel on December 22 2017 at 09:14:35 AM

Man, can't get Kelly to bite....    

Maybe I should have been more specific and said motors running ASCS races.   Smile   



 Hahaha nope



Wesmar
December 22, 2017 at 12:20:21 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 579
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dryslk on December 22 2017 at 07:43:34 AM

I was told years ago that  670 > 690 was a good ASCS engine .We have had engines  that builders have claimed to make  700 += but when run on a superflow dyno & compensated for altitude & air conditions the number wasnt close . There are A LOT of Happy DYNOS out there . I wonder about Running motors over 8200 when they stop making power @ 7800 .  R we just using up the Motor &  should we be looking @ Chassis setup to get us off the corners ???  Just my >02 



 You are correct, there are a few "happy" dyno's out there and guys have sold quite a few engines because of it.

 If you've ever seen our hats and shirts you'll notice the phrase "True Horsepower."  What that means is you will get the honest truth from us, no bullshit numbers.  



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
December 22, 2017 at 12:54:31 PM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1404
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 22 2017 at 12:20:21 PM

 You are correct, there are a few "happy" dyno's out there and guys have sold quite a few engines because of it.

 If you've ever seen our hats and shirts you'll notice the phrase "True Horsepower."  What that means is you will get the honest truth from us, no bullshit numbers.  



And, if you're lucky, an Atomic Fireball!!


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

linbob
December 22, 2017 at 05:03:35 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1135
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 22 2017 at 12:20:21 PM

 You are correct, there are a few "happy" dyno's out there and guys have sold quite a few engines because of it.

 If you've ever seen our hats and shirts you'll notice the phrase "True Horsepower."  What that means is you will get the honest truth from us, no bullshit numbers.  



Wesmar-  Do teams still get long track and short track engines or is that a thing of the past???



Wesmar
December 22, 2017 at 06:46:12 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 579
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Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on December 22 2017 at 05:03:35 PM

Wesmar-  Do teams still get long track and short track engines or is that a thing of the past???



  Yes, the majority of your National touring teams still do that.

  A lot of teams that run the regional stuff usually have two engines these days but most of the tracks they run seem to be short to medium tracks and are usually built for those types of tracks.

  The teams that only have one engine but run small, medium, and big tracks are usually "cammed" to where when they go to those different size tracks they will be somewhat in the ballpark and be able to compete.

 



revjimk
December 22, 2017 at 11:28:03 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 3484
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on December 22 2017 at 06:46:12 PM

  Yes, the majority of your National touring teams still do that.

  A lot of teams that run the regional stuff usually have two engines these days but most of the tracks they run seem to be short to medium tracks and are usually built for those types of tracks.

  The teams that only have one engine but run small, medium, and big tracks are usually "cammed" to where when they go to those different size tracks they will be somewhat in the ballpark and be able to compete.

 



Good info... so whats the difference? higher RPM for big tracks?



Aces&Eights
December 23, 2017 at 09:11:50 AM
Joined: 04/02/2016
Posts: 55
Reply

Wow, had no idea I'd kick off such an insightful conversation.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

kossuth
December 23, 2017 at 01:13:35 PM
Joined: 11/02/2013
Posts: 414
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Aces&Eights on December 19 2017 at 09:32:01 AM

Thanks for all that info, on the website and a few other places I've seen the ASCS head and SUPR head listed like they were one in the same.  I know this will call for speculation on your part, but what would you expect power wise from an average ASCS engine if it had a 2 brl carb instead of injection?  Where I am there are ZERO sprints, but mucho late models of every type, from 602 to Open Comp Super.  We also have quite a few SUPR/SAS spec late models.  I'm wanting to start a NON-wing sprint class that is exciting to watch but not crazy expensive.  I don't like the 602 idea some are doing up north, the 604 is ok, but I'd rather the class not be exclusively crate anything, but inclusive.  The UMSS has a package I like thats inclusive, but they are also in an area that already had sprints.  I was looking at possibly utilizing the ASCS/SUPR head, that way if a guy wants to sell it later there is a market from late models.  I was also considering using a 2 brl carb like the UMSS/Joe Hunt sprints use as well as having an RPM limit(7200) with a claim rule on the ignition box.  Just trying to get an idea on where I'd be power wise if we run this package.

 

360 ASCS/SUPR heads

2 brl carb w/HVH intake

RPM limit 7200

Claimable ignition box

Alcohol

Inspection holes in oil pan and intake.

 



Personal opinion but you would be more likely to suceed if you follow the rules and regulations of an already established series.  Reasons are as followed. 

1.  Used components are much easier to source nationally for new teams

2.  Setup information and characteristics are better defined and known. 

3.  Resale of cars are better and associated parts. 

There are already too many sprint divisions as it is leaving many divisions thin with car counts.  Let’s standardize alittle. 



Aces&Eights
December 23, 2017 at 06:42:24 PM
Joined: 04/02/2016
Posts: 55
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: kossuth on December 23 2017 at 01:13:35 PM

Personal opinion but you would be more likely to suceed if you follow the rules and regulations of an already established series.  Reasons are as followed. 

1.  Used components are much easier to source nationally for new teams

2.  Setup information and characteristics are better defined and known. 

3.  Resale of cars are better and associated parts. 

There are already too many sprint divisions as it is leaving many divisions thin with car counts.  Let’s standardize alittle. 



Using existing parts is what I'm preposing, with the ASCS/SUPR heads.  Aside from that there are NO series anywhere close to draw much from, no sprints of any kind weekly from Alabama thru Georgia thru South Carolina and most of Tennesee and most of North Carolina.  Its a wide open area and so my ideas are based on several different groups series I've looked at.  I refuse to do a 602/604 crate only deal, somebody else can do that if they wish.  Texas had the Elite racesaver305's, but next season they are going with PowrI/WAR rules which are open.  The next closest "NON-wing" group is in Pennsylvania and is a 602 ONLY group, thats a long ways away from my base in Georgia.  I understand the resustance from sprint car lifers not wanting sprints to be splintered any further, but to get sprints to take off here some concessions will be needed, like carbs instead of "Constant Flow Fuel Injection".  California has a group(Wingless Spec Sprints) that run 360 w/2 barrel carbs and starters that are very popular.  My idea is to blend existing Sprint/Late Model heads, which could be resold to existing sprint and DLM teams if needed.  The 2 barrel carb simplifies things and tends to limit RPM's combined with a mandatory ignition box with set revs that is claimable.  This should help keep rebuild costs down, make the cars less intimidating to learn and cost effective.  My goal is to limit HP to no more than 500, so a guy could run a stock block as opposed to a pricey aftermarket one.  Now if somebody wants to run 602/604, they can with 4 barrel carb and spec headers which yield 400/450 HP respectively.  Nobody around here knows anythin about sprints at all except the Non-wing onew flip a good bit and wing cars go real fast. 

My motivation is watching DLM in all forms die around me.  When I started in 86' Supers were everywhere with Limiteds in support weekly.  Today Supers/Limiteds have gone away, giving way to 604 Crate cars 10 years ago and now 604 is giving way to 602 cars, that are slow, boring but just as labor intensive as a super setup wise.  Guys are quiting in droves because of the expense and time involved to run a DLM.  With so many teams utilizing wing tunnels, shaker rigs at the top level and local teams needing spring smashers and shock dyno's to go along with the traditional scaling, bump stops, droop limiters, air shocks and on and on.  You need a team of folks just to set the car up every week and an engineer to tune it, if you want to win.  A Non-wing sprint is much simpler, takes less space and equipment to maintain and much more cost effective to run and just more fun, IMHO.  I want to make it as enticing as I can to build a core group.  Once it grows then we can see about bringing in more traditional stuff like Constant flow injection and in a perfect world 410 cars too.  But I can't see starting from the top and hoping people wanna take the plunge, I might as well ask them to start a local space program.  I'm attempting to make the investment as low risk as possible for anyone wanting to try it.

Thank you for you insights, I appreciate them.


Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.



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