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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead


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Topic: Dirty air Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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Nerf Bar
MyWebsite
October 03, 2017 at 03:56:00 PM
Joined: 03/24/2017
Posts: 9
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Is it time to take a 410 Sprint car to the wind tunnel to make some design changes and new rules to eliminate dirty air. I think it would make for better racing on the big half miles




motorhead748
October 03, 2017 at 03:59:41 PM
Joined: 08/05/2010
Posts: 399
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I'm no aerodynamicist by any stretch of the imagination but it'd be my guess the only way to clean them up enough to have a real affect would be to make them look like stock cars. 



oswald
October 03, 2017 at 04:08:59 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1634
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Reply to:
Posted By: Nerf Bar on October 03 2017 at 03:56:00 PM

Is it time to take a 410 Sprint car to the wind tunnel to make some design changes and new rules to eliminate dirty air. I think it would make for better racing on the big half miles



Yup, the cost of those new rules wouldn't run to many teams out of business would it.

 

Most dirty air is caused by the top wing. Don't hear the dirty air talk from winless racers or midgets.

 

Are you offering to pay for the wind tunnel time?



Beer Time
October 03, 2017 at 06:02:41 PM
Joined: 01/01/2014
Posts: 57
Reply

Wanna fix the Dirty Air...... Simple take the Wings off problem solved.



mcweld
October 03, 2017 at 06:27:51 PM
Joined: 03/11/2008
Posts: 45
Reply

Take the wings off then the problem will be low car count and people in the grandstands. 


Gary Allbuagh

fiXXXer
October 03, 2017 at 08:56:59 PM
Joined: 10/26/2014
Posts: 1354
Reply

Never heard much about dirty air until the flat wings became a thing. I'm just a guy who sits in the bleachers to watch but maybe that wasn't the best move? I've talked to people who work for a few different sprint car teams and they seem to think that flat wings definitely made it worse. 



fiXXXer
October 03, 2017 at 08:58:12 PM
Joined: 10/26/2014
Posts: 1354
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Reply to:
Posted By: Beer Time on October 03 2017 at 06:02:41 PM

Wanna fix the Dirty Air...... Simple take the Wings off problem solved.



www.usacracing.com. Might wanna start there......



ilikeposse
October 03, 2017 at 10:59:31 PM
Joined: 05/10/2017
Posts: 40
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The best way to fix it is starting a thread on hoseheads message board



alum.427
October 04, 2017 at 05:57:39 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 397
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the flat tops have without a doubt made it worse. the problem can't be easily fixed because of so many things that cause ghe problem in the first place. if a guy is closing on someone, he can run right up to his rear bumper. problem is he can't get out from behind the guy to make a move. the front end has no air on it. i think if you flattened the nose wing and had the side panels only allowed to be below the top line of the wing. it would let more air go around the car instead of it being pushed up to the top wing. watching these guys lift the RF at the grove even in clean air just amazes me. it just shows how much downforce air that 5 x 5 is creating on that LR 



egras
October 04, 2017 at 07:44:50 AM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 1733
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Reply to:
Posted By: alum.427 on October 04 2017 at 05:57:39 AM

the flat tops have without a doubt made it worse. the problem can't be easily fixed because of so many things that cause ghe problem in the first place. if a guy is closing on someone, he can run right up to his rear bumper. problem is he can't get out from behind the guy to make a move. the front end has no air on it. i think if you flattened the nose wing and had the side panels only allowed to be below the top line of the wing. it would let more air go around the car instead of it being pushed up to the top wing. watching these guys lift the RF at the grove even in clean air just amazes me. it just shows how much downforce air that 5 x 5 is creating on that LR 



I've only been a sprint car fan for about 15 or 16 years.  What was the original reason for requiring the flat wing?  I can only assume cost?  I have been in manufacturing my whole life and would assume producing the flat wing is cheaper?  Easier to inspect dimensions for tech inspect?  

 

Just curious



staggerman
October 04, 2017 at 07:51:51 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 534
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Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 04 2017 at 07:44:50 AM

I've only been a sprint car fan for about 15 or 16 years.  What was the original reason for requiring the flat wing?  I can only assume cost?  I have been in manufacturing my whole life and would assume producing the flat wing is cheaper?  Easier to inspect dimensions for tech inspect?  

 

Just curious



Flat wings were to loosen the cars up as people felt the dished wings had to much downforce which led to follow the leader racing. All it did was create other issues so the problem is still not solved.



Keyboard Jockey
October 04, 2017 at 08:47:25 AM
Joined: 04/16/2014
Posts: 207
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 04 2017 at 07:44:50 AM

I've only been a sprint car fan for about 15 or 16 years.  What was the original reason for requiring the flat wing?  I can only assume cost?  I have been in manufacturing my whole life and would assume producing the flat wing is cheaper?  Easier to inspect dimensions for tech inspect?  

 

Just curious



You would have to talk to a guy like Lynton Jeffery about that to get an insiders look on it, but yes I think cost was a huge factor. Lynton was on an episode of #OpenRed a while back and touched a little bit on wing tech. 



doublenuthin
October 04, 2017 at 11:55:17 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 175
Reply
Watch a car win the B main with a flat top and start in the rear. Going into turn 1 it will be on the right side and look like junk. Watch the "wing dance", no one gets right behind anyone, they dance all over the straight away trying to find clean air. Was talking to another racer from the 90s. I said maybe I was too stupid to remember dirty air. He said, we were running 2-3 dish wings and didn't have dirty air. Original idea was to take away downforce and loosen the cars. They run so much more angle and are substituting drag for downforce which helps create the dirty air.

wolfie2985
October 04, 2017 at 12:38:03 PM
Joined: 07/29/2010
Posts: 304
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: alum.427 on October 04 2017 at 05:57:39 AM

the flat tops have without a doubt made it worse. the problem can't be easily fixed because of so many things that cause ghe problem in the first place. if a guy is closing on someone, he can run right up to his rear bumper. problem is he can't get out from behind the guy to make a move. the front end has no air on it. i think if you flattened the nose wing and had the side panels only allowed to be below the top line of the wing. it would let more air go around the car instead of it being pushed up to the top wing. watching these guys lift the RF at the grove even in clean air just amazes me. it just shows how much downforce air that 5 x 5 is creating on that LR 



Not sure if/where this fits in the conversation but:

"watching these guys lift the RF at the grove even in clean air just amazes me." Yep, amazes me too. And this is the 'fits in the conversation part': The first time I was amazed, and have been ever since, was the first time I saw a sprint car - from Beer Hill on a beautiful spring Sunday afternoon 35 years ago (ouch) Smile

so, I'm thinking the it's not the flat wing...or maybe they've been flat since '82, heck, I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure of this though: the cars are so hooked-up now that it's tough to see a good race on a big, fast track. That said, if I had to chose between Lincoln and Port, I'd probably go with Port -even though the "racing" is likely better at Lincoln.



linbob
October 04, 2017 at 03:18:35 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1124
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Nerf Bar on October 03 2017 at 03:56:00 PM

Is it time to take a 410 Sprint car to the wind tunnel to make some design changes and new rules to eliminate dirty air. I think it would make for better racing on the big half miles



Indy cars and Nascar have spent all kinds of money on wind tunnels.  They still complain about dirty air and  also they have dicovered ways to dirty the air up to a car they are trying to pass.  Some say a dished wing causes less dirty air,  I do not know this for fact.  They are not going to take wings off the cars so foreget that.



rpmgordy
October 04, 2017 at 03:59:59 PM
Joined: 12/14/2013
Posts: 41
Reply

Want to make the racing better on the half miles? Shorten them to a quarter.



Beer Time
October 05, 2017 at 03:47:13 PM
Joined: 01/01/2014
Posts: 57
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: rpmgordy on October 04 2017 at 03:59:59 PM

Want to make the racing better on the half miles? Shorten them to a quarter.



Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Wanna make racing on 1/2 miles good again take away some of the down force ( make the top wings 1/2 the size they are now.)

 



linbob
October 05, 2017 at 04:13:26 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1124
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Beer Time on October 05 2017 at 03:47:13 PM

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Wanna make racing on 1/2 miles good again take away some of the down force ( make the top wings 1/2 the size they are now.)

 



A toy wing, I doubt it



cubicdollars
October 06, 2017 at 06:20:32 PM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4107
Reply

A simple wing angle rule like Brad Doty talks about would do wonders for the sport. Creating passing in the heat races for the fans instead of the strung out freight train we have now. And it would bring smiles back to car owners when they take a look at their bank book. Maybe a regular garage could afford to sponsor a sprint car again. Remember that?

No adjuster allowed. Flat top of the wing has to measure less than ~20 degrees, rear edge has to plumb bob in front of the rear axle. Would take 30 seconds at the scales. All other forms of major auto racing have drastic aerodynamic rules. NASCAR templates cost more money to build than a sprint car itself. Once again sprint car racing has every thing going for it naturally. Just no one has the balls to make a call to bring back blue collar owners/drivers and enable Mitch Smith cowboy up track conditions once again. Doty wing rule and SOD tire rule fixes everything and saves big money. 360 could easily run with a 410.

They would have to lock everyone in with a 40" minimum setback rule to keep people from trying to put more weight on the rear tires though if they take downforce away. 99% of 410s run at least 40" now. Make the 1% of 39" guys go to shorter arms or move their motors forward until they need a new car. Plus maybe limit the wheelbase more so they don't push the front axle way forward for the same reason. Make a rule to keep people from going out and buying a bunch of new $3000 frames. Cockpits should be getting bigger for safety concerns, not smaller. 39" takes 1" of crush space away if they get in a bad wreck.

 


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com


ryanhunsinger
October 07, 2017 at 11:59:59 PM
Joined: 12/10/2016
Posts: 108
Reply

I'm not positive but if I had to guess I'd say that KKR has had their cars in the wind tunnel. They run that weird hood and I've always assumed that the reason for that was whatever they found in wind tunnel testing. It really makes no sense otherwise when you can already buy hoods off the shelf in fibreglass and carbon fiber in tons of different designs.





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