Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Don Reem sheds drag racing roots to become Sprint Car owner, chassis dealer

Another baseless rant from this clown? Since we know he is trying (and failing) to call out xxx, why doesn't he say how they are not as safe or safer than j&j? Because it's made in, oh no, the evil evil China? Yea, if something is welded in China, it's impossible that it be safe because you know, China, and stuff. Great points he made. /sarcasm

Someone questioning the quality of the XXX chassis has either done very little research, or, after doing research and arriving at that conclusion, is displaying a complete disconnect with the Sprint Car industry.

To us at XXX, quality is defined by Safety and Performance.

Our performance is unquestionable, and easy to quantify.  To date, we have 1,986 A-Main wins, and 100's of championships.  They are all compiled and detailed on our website for everyone to digest.  There are scarce few manufacturers in the industry that have produced these results over the past few years.

As far as safety, we have sold well over 2,000 chassis since introducing them in 2006, and have an unblemished safety record.  Safety is paramount to us (and the same holds true for every manufacturer in this industry).  I have employees, friends, fathers and mothers, etc, all that utilize our products to stay safe.  After racing an XXX in his final year, Fred Rahmer has put his 2 sons into our XXX chassis.  Being a father myself, there is no greater statement of quality and trust to me than having parents entrust my product with the safety of their children.  I meet racers, owners, teams and parents all the time, and can look them in the eye knowing that our company has done the upmost to ensure their safety.  Fact is, XXX has invested more in testing and R&D than probably any other company has done over the last decade.  We have never compromised safety for performance.  We have been under a magnifying glass, and still no one can point to an outright failure of our chassis even after 10 years.

A picture of a chassis with mangled tubes front of the X-Brace does not support an argument of low quality.  There are (literally) 4 tubes that are 0.095" wall thickness holding everything forward of the X in place.  If you drive a 1,500 pound race car into a solid object at 100+ mile per hour, that is an expected result.  All chassis will do it, regardless of the manufacturer.  Everyone in the industry has seen it happen to every chassis brand.  So, for example, posting a picture of Doug Esh's car after his crash into the bridge at the Grove only shows that the poster has a lack of understanding of the sport.  I was there.  Doug was going over 100 mph, and hit an immovable object that is at least 16 ft in the air.  Doug immediately walked away from the wreck, and the roll cage showed no signs of compromise.  Quite frankly, the bridge looked like it sustained more damage (and you can still see the bent I-Beams today).

We do not enter debates regarding people’s beliefs on macro, micro, or global economics.  What they purchase and why they purchase is only theirs’s to choose.  As a company, we believe in integrity and honesty, and have been transparent with the racing community since inception.  We feel racers and race teams are intelligent enough to make their own buying decisions, and respect those decisions.  So we have no issue at all with those that choose not to purchase XXX products, for whatever reason.

If there is another measure of quality besides safety and performance that is in question, I encourage people to contact me directly to discuss.  I'm the owner of XXX.  I can be reached by email ([email protected]) or phone at 866.632.9925.  I welcome a dialog with anyone that has any concerns.

I can't for the life of me see where in that artical that he critisized any brand chassis. He did apparently pick another brand to sell than some wish he did and i think we all have that right. Some of you might think about taking a chill pill.

He referenced "Chinese stuff" in the original interview. If he's got somethin to say about a perticular chassis, then say it.

The only clown I see is you. He didn't say a damn word about Triple-X. He sells J&J's so it's only natural to promote his product and safety is one of the things people look for when buying a chassis. It's called business. What's he supposed to say? "The chassis I sell aren't any better than anything else out there"........that isn't exactly the smartest way to sell your product. You want people to believe that you offer the best there is. Just stop with the bullshit. It's obvious for some reason that you have a bone to pick with Ryan Taylor and Triple-X chassis give you an erection. Me personally, if I raced, I'd give Triple-X a try because they've been winning races like crazy the last few years and I've yet to see one do anything different from any other chassis in a crash but the guy is entitled to his opinion and if he thinks an American made J&J chassis is better than a Chinese Triple-X, so be it. He didn't insult anyone or say anything rude like you're doing.

 where are your frames made? I read they were made in wasington state. but I keep hearing China. what is the truth?

The chassis are not made in Washington State.  They are made offshore.  We have a full service facility in Washington State with the ability to make custom chassis, but make very few (have not made a custom chassis for a number of years).

In our Washington shop, we mostly do frame repairs, and minor modifications requested by customers (seat bar height, modified brackets, etc).  And, most importantly/primarily, we perform an extensive and exhaustive quality check for each chassis sold.

We have CNC machines in our Washington State facility, and make all our CNC product on site (arms, stops, birdcages, motor plates, etc, etc).

Thanks Jeremy

Thanks for investing in sprint car racing, Mr. Reem

kudos to you  mark@xxx - it takes large cahonies (sp) to come on here...a rather hostile environment...XXX success and customer base speaks for itself

I, too, am rather fond of the time when sprint cars were built by hand by guys like Nance, Trevis, Allen, Osborn..... in places like Kansas, Ohio, Hanover, PA and Indiana...but, my god, that ship has sailed-out empty,  went around the world and came back full so many times since those days......

It is somewhat refreshing that there are folks who are passionate about made in the USA.....even though they are running against the wind

That's exactly how I feel. Well said.

We should all have nothing but respect for what founder of Triple X has accomplished.  To assume and I say assume without truly knowing that his product is less quality than other chassis manufactures is complete ignorance and a signal to open your eyes and ears about the global economy we live in today.  The same great products and brands you are using or wearing right now are sourced over seas: Nike, Apple, Dell, many parts in your Ford, Chevy, and Dodge vehicles.  It's all about quality control and fortitude to meet with potential suppliers to make sure you are offering best products possible.  Based on those utilizing Triple X chassis today I believe the founder has proven himself or the business wouldn't exist. I am sure when time is right and opportunity exists there could or will be more American made products and maybe sooner than later given issues in China.  Please as the saying goes:  Don't hate the player, hate the game. 

P.S. I have traveled on a 280 mph crystal clean, super quiet, solid train in China a few years ago.   I am not proud to say I was on a slow, rickety, loud, cold train at one of our largest US airports today that was not built very long ago.  Don't assign just because it was made in Asia it's of lesser quality.   

Round of applause. You get it sir. I refuse to be a blind patriot. The fact is, there's some things (and the number increases every day thanks to our everyone gets a trophy society) that people in other countries do better than we do. Sprint car chassis isn't one of those because all they're doing is welding up an American design offshore but just because it's "made in America" doesn't mean it's any good. The company I work for is a good example of that. Our shit is made in America (with materials made in Canada and America) but if I were in the market to buy the stuff we make, I sure as hell wouldn't get it from us. We cut corners everywhere and we put out ENTIRELY too much garbage. I'd be willing to bet 15-20% of the goods that leave our shop are defective in some way. It's gonna catch up with us someday but I just work there and I do my personal best. The problem goes far over my head. All you have to do is watch a couple of episodes of Top Gear on BBC and you'll see just how pathetically far we have fallen behind in the auto industry as far as innovation goes. Also, look at electronics. We flat out suck with electronics compared to the Japanese.  I love my country and I still think we live in the greatest country on earth but to think that America does everything better than everyone else, is just ignorant.

Pancho Lawler, one of your biggest PA dealers, stated in Area Auto Racing News that Rahmer and Hodnett have run custom XXX frames recently, which directly contradicts your statement that your customers get the same exact chassis as your factory supported teams. It also contradicts your statement above that you "have not made a custom chassis in a number of years". Differences have also been noticed in the pits. Pervasive rumors also exist that your factory teams have to go thru multiple new chassis to find ones that work.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Can you post or quote article from AARN you are referring to? Is it possible that this was addressed above? "minor modifications requested by customers (seat bar height, modified brackets, etc).  And, most importantly/primarily, we perform an extensive and exhaustive quality check for each chassis sold."  That could be considered as custom. I would think any chassis company offers these services. What is your point by the way?  Rahmer and Hodnett are extremely successful and they didn't get that way by doing whatever everyone else is doing. They are not settling for less than full quality and their results prove this. 

Apologies for the delayed response.  I had to do some research to ensure I had factual information with which to base the response.  Sorry in advance for the long reply, there is a lot to address.

I contacted Pancho Lawler directly, and vetted with him.  He indicated that in the article he was referring to us doing some R&D.  I think it's pretty clear what his statement is referring to in the article (below).  Pancho also wanted to let you know that he has 24 chassis in stock right now, should you want one

We extensively R&D chassis changes (so the testing part is true).  This particular concept was a change in the motor bar diagonals configuration.  We removed the existing motor bar diagonals from a stock chassis (not custom built), and replaced with the concept diagonals (see picture of the car we sent Rahmer -  http://www.xxxraceco.com/transfer/DiagonalChange.jpg).  We spent countless hours with this change on our chassis flex dyno, and found a minimal delta between that and a stock car.  Less than 3% side to side flex change, and less than 1% torsional flex change along the chassis center line.  You can view chassis dyno output here - http://www.xxxraceco.com/transfer/FlexBenchOutput.JPG.   It's a comparison of a completely stock chassis to a chassis with the motor bar diagonal change.  To figure out which is which you will need to invest a large amount of money and time into a chassis dyno

Once we completed the design phase, our XXX R&D lead raced the chassis.  He was confident with the change, and so we pushed it out to a few R&D teams that we work with to further vet the change.  The teams that tired this change were Rahmer/Smith for winged 410 (they did not feel value in the change, so switched back to completely stock after a couple of races), Hodnett for winged 410 (did not feel a difference), Brady Bacon for a non-wing (liked it), and Curt Micheals for 360 (really liked it).  Given there was no clear advantage to this change, it was not put into production.  After testing, both PA teams went back to stock chassis, but Curt Micheals still runs it.

Stevie Smith won the National Open back in a stock chassis ... you can see the stock motor bar diagonal in this picture.  http://www.xxxraceco.com/transfer/StevieSmithNationalOpenWin2015.jpg

As a side note (to your theories).  Joey Saldana dominated Charlotte this year.  That was an XXX chassis that they picked up from Bernie and Indy Race Parts and tried for a few races at the end of the season.  That chassis got to Indy Race Parts via MotorState (a distirbutor of XXX).  So we had nothing to do with that chassis other than build it and send it to MotorState for distribution to dealers.  One random XXX chassis.  Not "multiple".  Not "custom".  And, clearly not slow.

The actual article is below for digestion.  I'm somewhat amazed that you got what you did from it.  And now know why you did not share it.

Credit: Area Auto Racing News, Nov. 15, 2015

*****************************************************************************************

When Pancho Lawlor made the business decision to become a stocking dealer for the Triple X Sprint Car in 2009, he brought into Central Pennsylvania a car that was manufactured in the People’s Republic Of China.
The Triple X customer list is impressive in Central Pennsylvania and further north and east: Greg Hodnett, Brian Montieth, Glenndon Forsythe, Lance Dewease, Aaron Ott, Stevie Smith, JJ Grasso, Davie Franek, Curt Michael, Sean Kirkpatrick, Zach Newlin, and JB Cunningham.
Recent converts to Triple X include Nicole Bower, Dave Ely, Ashley Cappetta, Rodney Westhafer, Logan Schuchart, Jacob Allen, Cory Haas, Kyle Moody, Jim Siegel, Freddie Rahmer, Brandon Rahmer, Niki Young, Adam Wilt, Scott Fisher, Chase Dietz, Robbie Kendall, Brent Marks, Troy Fraker, Jay Galloway and Amy Ott.
Lawlor  discussed his company’s decision to bring  Triple X to Central Pennsylvania and its ramifications.

AARN: When Triple X was first introduced to the racing world, some called it the 'Chinese Sprint Car', implying quality deficiency. Has quality been consistent in Triple X products since you started selling them? If not, has it improved over time?
PL:?First and foremost, I am not an engineer. I have education but I’m not an engineer. But I know that Mark (Babcock) of Triple X told me that they took one of their cars and cut it right down the center of the roll cage and let the WoO officials check the thickness of metal with their testing device.
They were thrilled with that, the Outlaw officals were happy with it. On the?Triple X website, the metallurgy testing for density of the chrome moly tubing is available.

AARN: How did the relationsihp with Triple X begin?
PL:  I went to Knoxville the year Triple X was introducing its products, in 2009. They had approached us.
I had interest. But the question I asked them, is what I knew of my customers werer going to ask me: It’s Chinese. How do I know if it is safe and how do I know it is going to work’?  And I'll have to say I don’'t know because at the time I didn’t.
So they sent me a car, frame and body. I assembled it, leased an engine from Kriner’s. I rented Williams Grove and Lincoln  and at each track I had five differnent drivers rn the car in test sessions. I wanted to get their feedback, did they like it, not like it?
Nobody had any qualms about it, no complaintts about it.

AARN: How well did it perform?
PL: Wat it earthshatteringly fast over this chassis or that chasis? No is wasn’t But it worked and you were satisfied with it. The real selling point was a few years back when you started to see some of them crash and see that they held up. More so than if they work, that’s a safety thing for me and I can sleep at night knowing that.
Doug Esh flipped a car at Williams Grove and the nose of the car caught the bridge. And it stopped dramatically and slammed  to the tground. He was okay. I walked to the pit area and looked at the car. There were no welds broken. It was quite bent ,but no broken welds. That pretty much sold me on being able to sell the car.
Glenndon (Forsythe) and Freddie Rahmer got together at Hagerstown and flipped on the striaghtawa.y Both cars were bent to all hades. But the guys were okay. I took Glenndon's frame nad put in our showroom for a couple of months to show people how the frame bent, but didn;’t brake after a bad crash like that.

AARN: How does Triple X craftsmanship and design compare to other cars? To what extent is it superior?
PL: The cars used to be sprayed over with oil in China, then they'd come in here and had to be washed. The cars looked like hell. But in the last couple of years they changed their process. They sand blast and spray them before them ship them to us and they look good. They come in  ready to powder coat.
In the five years we have handled Triple X, I have yet ot see a missing weld.  They are not perfect, nobody is.
The biggest difference is in the post-manufacturing prep?

AARN: As a practical matter, how different is one Sprint Car chassis from any other?
PL:?We can take, with the exceptions of the rear motor plate and the brake pedal, almost every other component, about 95 percnet of them, out of a Sprint Car and they will all cross over,  Triple X, Maxim, GF1, J&J, which is great.
So there are a lot of components anyone can make that will fit every car, like a front torsion arm for example.
Which is the exact opposite of the Micro Sprint world.

AARN: Order lead time: Is it greater with Triple X than from a domestic chassis producer?
PL:??We're a J&J dealer also. If I called them and wanted to order an in-stock car, a cookie cutter car, they are two or three weeks. Their advantage is being able to custom build. What they order will show up at Pancho's just that way. If they didn't want a left side safety cage, for exmaple, that's that's the way we'll get it.
Whereas a Triple X, if ta customer doesn't want a left side safety cage, they are going to get it anyway. There is no customizing to it. In that respect, it is a little different time frame, but more time for the American manufacturers.
But, I don't order one or two cars, I don’'t stock just one or two. At this point, I have fourteen in stock, We order in sixes during the year. I take that upon myself to keep inventory. One of the proudtest things I do in business is to have in stock what the customer wants when he walks in the door, whether it's a J&J or a Triple X or a Rocket Late Model.
Not everybody can do that. The Triple X  require a little different planning. If they are out of frames Washington, it's two or three weeks before the next container comes in, then another week to get it cross country. It's part of the business planning. Overall, the logistics aren't too bad.
When Triple X in Washington receives cars from China, they don't just get the six I ordered. More like twenty six. But you have to be on the list to get one. Volume drives it, as it does in most everything.  The volume we do mitiages the increased shipping costs we might otherwise have to bear.

AARN: Bottom line: What is the price point?
PL: If you are buying a frame and body kit from any manufacturer, Triple X is at least a thousand dollars cheaper.

AARN: What kind of tech support does Triple X have in the US? Is this a role that dealers assume that they don't with domestic companies?
PL: They do have that. There are people out there, just like at Maxim. The one general manager there used to run a big speed shop on the west coast. They all have background, hands-on people, who can talk to a top racer or a beginner equally effectively.
The tech support program was fully in place inside the first two years of when they started building cars. I have not been there. It's in Burlington, Washington.

AARN:?Who do you go to when you have a problem with product?
PL: Burlington, Washington.  Everythings shipped to us comes from there.

AARN: Who owns Triple X? Is there a domestic office? Is anything Triple X currently produced in the US?
PL:?Some components are not made overseas and some components tare made oversees.
You can get two different lengths of hcassis and two differne heights. And past that, theeare are not anuy optons on the cars

AARN: Is there still resistance by customers to even consider racing a Triple X, regardless of track record?
PL: There is some resistence and you have to respect the people who have that view. Everybod y makes their own decisions based on their opinion. What they buy, what they put their driver in, what their budget is, I can accept that.
Is it well founded? I don't know.
But I won’t sell anything I don't believe in or wouldn’t put myself or my kids in. That's just how I operate my business.
If somebody wantx me to sell their product, I have to believe in it. I have to see it, test it out to make sure it's safe and a value for customerd. My job is to keep inventory in stock for customers who need what we sell to go racing.  I am able to sleep at night because I know everything I sell is a good value and safe.
I don’t carry certain wheel brands because I don't believe that some of the wheel companies are bullding safe wheels. I don't stock them new, don’t buy them used.

AARN:?Has the Triple X price point remained consistent with respect to other manufacturers over time?
PL: The American companies have not brought their prices down to meet the Triple X cars. The Triple X cars did go up in 2015 but for 2016 they will not.
The American manufacturers complained about Triple X at first. Now you don’t hear much about that. Everybody has their piece of the pie now. I've been in the business long enough to know that chassis choice is very cyclical.

AARN: What parts does  Triple XXX make and are they cheaper as well?
PL: They manufacture torsion arm, front axles, radius rods, bumpers, w-links, and small bolt on items.

AARN: Do you see them expanding into other parts such as steering, rear-ends, gears or wheels?
PL: No. I tthink they have found their niche market, their base. They will not be going into areas they are not familiar with that will require a retooling overseas.
In rear ends, Frankland, Winters and DMI all make a great product at reallly good prices. Even if I had the money, I wouldn't be looking into building a better ‘widget’ because the market isn't that large and therefore there are only so many you are going to sell.

AARN:?What are the customer options available for the Triple X?
PL: The primary car is the ‘wedge car’ which is two inches taller behind the driver's head in the roll cage height. Then there's the standard height, which they all were prior to 2008 when Maxin and some of the others went to the taller cage.
The Triple X also comes in two wheelbase options,  a 87 inch or an 88 inch car.

AARN: Who designed the chassis and has it or will it change?
RL: Maxim, J&N Triple X, GF1 cars are all very close as far as their design, pick up points. There aren't many differences. Triple X is a migration of several chassis. They took the best from the others. The first one they sent me looked pretty much identical to a Maxim.
Since we tested it, it has been changed. But in a small way, with a differnet motor plate. Today, there are a few test cars out there that are a little different. Brady Bacon has one with a different downtube design. Stevie Smith won a lot of races for Fred Rahmer last year in a Triple X test car, one of the two test cars that were available.

AARN: You took a chance and were one of the early dealers. Did it hurt your relationship with other US manufactures?
PL: A few frowned upon it when we did it and my other chassis manufacturer of course wasn't happy.
But the money I spent to buy into J&J didn't say I couldn't carry another chassis company. He just wasn't happpy I carried a Chinese chassis. But  it was bound to happen from somebody and I felt I did my research before I said ‘yes”.
I didn’'t just say, ‘hey, I can make more money here if I carry this car’. I did not do that. I spent my own time and my own money to make sure that what I was going to sell was legit, safe. And a good product.

AARN: In the beginning the US manufacturers made a stand against Triple X Did that work at first? Is that all forgotten?
PK: It didn't. Some manufacturers did get together, in I think it was 2009, 2010, and ran some ads but that was it. A funny thing, one of the manufacturers who took that stand about his stuff all being made in America recently bought a Triple X car from me and won with that car.
I had no problems with components. One manufacturer might have called, trying to strong arm, me but it didn't work. You make your own decisions.

AARN: Was there a turning point, a team switching over, a big win, that shifted opinion about Triple X?
PL: Well, Jerry Parrish was the first major team owner to buy one.
But when Fred Rahmer, an icon in Sprint racing if ever there was one. made the switch to Triple X,   that was the turning point.
A couple of things went on that year.He has been with J&J, then with Maxim. He had been in a slump. went with a new team.He had a point to prove. Then h. just kicked everybody's butt all year, He won the National Open.
Triple X was perceived as the hot ticket. So Hodnett, Dewease switched over. The trickle down effect is true.
But that was when the orders really started to come in.
With the Triple X stuff, their price point is close enough to a used Americna car kit. So many people are going to say, ‘why not spend a few hundred dollars more and buy a new Triple X’”?
When Fred did that, the perception became, 'this was really real'. Now, in this region, in the pit area, 80 percent of the cars are Triple Xs. In 2008 80 percent were all J&Js. The wave, the changes, you start winning, everybody might switch if it's the right ticket for them.

AARN: Who is the nearest Triple X dealer to you?
PK: Kear's in Tiffin, Ohio.

AARN: Do you sell the Triple X Micro Sprint chassis? If so, how well accepted are they?
PL: Yes. The Micro Sprint is a neat little deal for Triple X. We built a show car for them last year for the PRI show. Here again, I wanted to build sometihng before I got involed as a dealer.
They run really well in Australia, and on the West Coast. On the east coast, the people who have them, like them. There's not a lot of them.
Around this region, you have Hyper Racing and Mike Dicely and Terry Schaeffer and RTS. I’ve grown up with those two guys and respect them both. To get any kind of stronghold in the business, even at a cheaper price point, it would be hard to complete against those two guys.

AARN: Triple X also builds a Midget.  Do you sell those?
PL: Mike Heffner has two Triple X Midgets. He ran one last year and has a new one for the Chili Bowl. The people who run their Midgets are really good. They are more or less a Spike copy, look a little different, but the same pick up points. They are a good value, but there isn't much volume.
The Midget is a very good value. The Micro  is reallly, really cheap. It saves a guy a lot of money who so going racing.

AARN: Is there a shelf life for a Triple XXX Chassis? Do they flex out or become less effective after 10 or 20 races? If so, is this found in other chassis?
PL: The cars are all chrome moly and flex. Will they flex back as quickly over time as they used to? Probably not. I think there is a time for how long to run a chassis. Two years and it's probably time to get a new one and use the old one as a spare.
Bobby Allen and LoganSchuchart ran World Of Outlaws this year. Logan ran 71 races in the same Triple X on the World Of Outlaws. They built a new car to run at Charlotte and ran the same as they did with the older car.
Do they run out? Sure, but at what point? Lance Dewease, a close frriend of mine, tells me what when he was with Joe Harz with the J&J, they ran 80 some races. He said the car was flexing so much he's have to reweld the frame it was cracking so bad. But the car was still winning, so why change it? Lance figured, I’ll weld it every week if we're still winning with it.

AARN: Do you foresee a day when Triple X or another company builds a Late Model in China to cut cost?
PL: I don’t think that's their intention or their direction. If someone had the knowledge base and the means on the American side to ship to the northeast, they might consider it. But that's not their direction on their own. They are Sprint Car racers, Sprint Car fans. They're kind of like myself in that.
Could somebody twist their arm to go Late Model racing if it could make money? It would have to be the right situation for them.

*****************************************************************************************

Thanks for your reply. No theories here. Just what is read or seen. Like the non-standard frames seen at the race track you mentioned above or the article read in AARN. Or like other interviews that have been becoming more frequent, of your factory supported teams switching chassis to try to get going. Marks claimed in an interview that he struggled for much of the year until finally putting a different car together. Stevie Smith said in an interview that he was starting to blame himself until the Rahmers put another chassis together at his request to fix the problem. Hodnett also mentioned in an interview that putting a different car together fixed a dry spell. It takes a lot for factory supported teams to inadvertently blame a sponsor for their struggles. A few years ago you heard nothing but glorious praise from people on a deal. Most people don't have the time and resources to go to such lengths even if your chassis are half price. Or perhaps they are priced correctly. 

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

I've heard of teams doing the same exact thing with Maxim, J&J, GF-1, JEI, Eagle, Gambler, Schnee, Avenger and every other chassis manufacturers that have come and gone over the years. That doesn't make XXX any different than anyone else. You're just using that to try and advance your delusional agenda that XXX chassis are junk. They may be made in China but their record speaks for itself as does their safety when involved in heavy crashes. Like them or not, they're here to stay and the reason for that is because they work. You can talk about the price all you want and that factors in but don't think for one second that Hodnett, Marks, Montieth, Stevie etc. wouldn't pay Maxim of J&J prices if it meant winning more races. Even if XXX is giving them chassis, they wouldn't run them if they didn't win races.

Less wordy version of this that Cubic *MAY* actually understand: STFU

That the factory is sending out the same frame consistantly I can believe. But, what takes place after it's delivered? I do know that when Gambler hired Wolfgang to win the WoO Champioship in the Gambler house car, he was up against Karl and Steve who were also running Gamblers. The difference was that Karl was making modifications to the frame. Doug also wanted to make pretty much the same modifications and Gambler said NO. And there aren't many that know more about frames than Doug Wolfgang. They wanted their customers to see a factory frame get the job done just as it came in the box. Wolfgang finished a very close second to Steve, and was fired for not doing the job he was hired to do. Doug harbored no ill feelings towards the Gambler people. He understood it wasn't his business to run. So...what I'm getting at is this. Is Freddy making any modifications to the frame? That would tend to make some think that they are getting custom frames. I'm not out there in PA to see, so I'm just asking. Freddy of course also has the kind of experience to know what if any modifications will make a frame better.