Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

As always, thanks to Jeremy Elliott for his continued coverage of sprint car racing. Agree with him or not, we should all be thankful to have a guy like him who goes above and beyond to give our sport much needed press coverage. The Outlaws vs. Posse debate is stupid as always. Of course we have good drivers in Central Pa. Whether or not you want to admit it, Dietrich, Hodnett, Stevie Smith, Lucas Wolfe and Brent Marks have proven that they can leave the porch and be a threat to win against anyone. That said, it rarely happens. The Outlaws are the best in the business and Central Pa is the minor leagues. I don't intend that to be disrespectful in any way. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a posse fan to the core but just being a fan of your hometown drivers doesn't mean that the facts aren't what they are. Going out on the road and competing with those guys night in and night out at all those different tracks would be an eye opener for even the best local racer. Our local guys run the same 3 tracks 90% of the time and they're damn good racers so naturally, they're going to be tough to beat at those tracks but in no way, shape or form are they on the same level with the WoO. I personally think Danny Dietrich has talent that can carry him far from the porch. He may have the god given ability to be a champion at the highest level of our sport some day and in my opinion, I think he does if he were to get out there in the next couple of years and get in with a good team. It won't come over night and he'll spend at least 5 seasons getting his ass handed to him most nights but the potential is there. But back on topic, I think Jeremy got the rankings correct. I can't disagree with any of it.

I missed something. When did Wolfe and Darrah win championships on tour? Anytime any driver of any real stature has invaded Posse country, the Posse got their asses kicked. That's why THEY (the Posse) sleep in their own beds!

I believe dsc was being sarcastic.... 

Why is it always black and white with people on this board?  There's no room for shades of gray?  On one hand you have PA homeboys who blindly claim PA is the best bar none.  That's simply not the case.  On the other hand you have have people, usually from the midwest or Ohio, who say "PA sucks!  They get their asses kicked!" That's simply not the case either.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  PA guys are damn good, but they are not world beaters on the road.  But here's a little something for comparison.  Drivers ranked 8, 9, and 10 by Jeremy were Saldana, Madsen, and Hodnett, let's see how they fared head to head shall we?

Volusia Night 1- Saldana (4), Madsen (10), Hodnett (3)- Hodnett (QT for Madsen)

Volusia Night 2- Saldana (7), Madsen (9), Hodnett (4)- Hodnett (QT for Madsen)

Volusia Night 3- Saldana (6), Madsen (5), Hodnett (11)- Madsen (QT for Madsen; HC for Hodnett +11)

Lincoln- Saldana (22), Madsen (9), Hodnett (1)- Hodnett (QT for Hodnett)

Grove Night 1- Saldana (8), Madsen (12), Hodnett (2)- Hodnett

Weedsport- Saldana (19), Madsen (2), Hodnett (4)- Madsen (QT for Hodnett)

New Egypt- Saldana (8), Madsen (4), Hodnett (6)- Madsen (QT for Saldana)

Grove Summer 1- Saldana (5), Madsen (23), Hodnett (27)- Saldana (QT for Hodnett)

Grove Summer 2- Saldana (5), Madsen (12), Hodnett (9)- Saldana

Knoxville Qual- Saldana (6), Madsen (4), Hodnett (9)- Madsen 

Knoxville A- Saldana (5), Madsen (2), Hodnett (10)- Madsen (HC for Hodnett +13)

Grove National Open- Saldana (23), Madsen (22), Hodnett (16)- Hodnett (Madsen and Saldana took Provisionals)

Port Royal- Saldana (21), Madsen (16), Hodnett (9)- Hodnett

Charlotte 1- Saldana (22), Madsen (11), Hodnett (2)- Hodnett (Saldana was leading when wing panel broke)

Charlotte 2- Saldana (1), Madsen (13), Hodnett (22)- Saldana (QT for Saldana)

So what does this mean? In the 15 races that these guys went head to head (Knoxville Qualifying is an outlier, but I'm counting it) here are some stats.

15 total races-  Best finish Hodnett (7 times), Madsen (5 times), Saldana (3 times)

9 races (not Posse Soil)- Best finish Madsen (5 times), Hodnett (3 times), (1 time)

6 races (Posse soil)- Best finish Hodnett (4 times), Saldana (2 times)

15 total races- Hodnett and Saldana each had a win.  Hodnett and Madsen each had 3 QT's, Saldana had 1.  Hodnett had two HC's (Neither at a Posse track, and both were double digit increases) Hodnett never used a provisional, while Saldana and Madsen each used one.

So I say all of that to say this; look at the hairs we're splitting to say who is a better driver for a given year.  To say any one of these three drivers "kicked the other's ass", or "one is clearly better than the others" is ltalking out of their ass.  Yes 15 races is a small sample size, but dammit this is the best I can do right now.  Christ people, show the ability to use logic and reasoning once in awhile.  Don't simply emotion when making an argument.  Oh wait, I forgot.... I'm on Hosehead's.

PS- Blazer, use your head a little.  Any of the drivers who come into PA with a great "stature" aren't just going to take some shlub, no-name ride.  They are usually hopping into the best, or damn near the best equipment in PA.  e.g. Wolfgang with Weikert, or Pittman with Heffner just to name two off the top of my head.  Great drivers plus great equipment equal great results.

The "discussion" was Wolfe and Darrah.....Hell we all know what happened at WG. And Posse fans can be and should be proud of that. I've never said that the Posse isn't loaded with talent. There's just a huge difference between racing local and racin the WoO tour. Don't you get that? I'm a NSL and Knoxville fan. I don't get caught up in "our locals are better than PA locals". It's rather simple really. Our guys are better at home and your guys are better at home. I do wish a few of the top drivers from PA would travel a little more. I know it's difficult to do that financially.  I'm sure they would be adding talent to the field wherever they ran, and would be threats to win. But I don't believe they would dominate the tour.

I believe dsc was being sarcastic.... 

Why is it always black and white with people on this board?  There's no room for shades of gray?  On one hand you have PA homeboys who blindly claim PA is the best bar none.  That's simply not the case.  On the other hand you have have people, usually from the midwest or Ohio, who say "PA sucks!  They get their asses kicked!" That's simply not the case either.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  PA guys are damn good, but they are not world beaters on the road.  But here's a little something for comparison.  Drivers ranked 8, 9, and 10 by Jeremy were Saldana, Madsen, and Hodnett, let's see how they fared head to head shall we?

Volusia Night 1- Saldana (4), Madsen (10), Hodnett (3)- Hodnett (QT for Madsen)

Volusia Night 2- Saldana (7), Madsen (9), Hodnett (4)- Hodnett (QT for Madsen)

Volusia Night 3- Saldana (6), Madsen (5), Hodnett (11)- Madsen (QT for Madsen; HC for Hodnett +11)

Lincoln- Saldana (22), Madsen (9), Hodnett (1)- Hodnett (QT for Hodnett)

Grove Night 1- Saldana (8), Madsen (12), Hodnett (2)- Hodnett

Weedsport- Saldana (19), Madsen (2), Hodnett (4)- Madsen (QT for Hodnett)

New Egypt- Saldana (8), Madsen (4), Hodnett (6)- Madsen (QT for Saldana)

Grove Summer 1- Saldana (5), Madsen (23), Hodnett (27)- Saldana (QT for Hodnett)

Grove Summer 2- Saldana (5), Madsen (12), Hodnett (9)- Saldana

Knoxville Qual- Saldana (6), Madsen (4), Hodnett (9)- Madsen 

Knoxville A- Saldana (5), Madsen (2), Hodnett (10)- Madsen (HC for Hodnett +13)

Grove National Open- Saldana (23), Madsen (22), Hodnett (16)- Hodnett (Madsen and Saldana took Provisionals)

Port Royal- Saldana (21), Madsen (16), Hodnett (9)- Hodnett

Charlotte 1- Saldana (22), Madsen (11), Hodnett (2)- Hodnett (Saldana was leading when wing panel broke)

Charlotte 2- Saldana (1), Madsen (13), Hodnett (22)- Saldana (QT for Saldana)

So what does this mean? In the 15 races that these guys went head to head (Knoxville Qualifying is an outlier, but I'm counting it) here are some stats.

15 total races-  Best finish Hodnett (7 times), Madsen (5 times), Saldana (3 times)

9 races (not Posse Soil)- Best finish Madsen (5 times), Hodnett (3 times), (1 time)

6 races (Posse soil)- Best finish Hodnett (4 times), Saldana (2 times)

15 total races- Hodnett and Saldana each had a win.  Hodnett and Madsen each had 3 QT's, Saldana had 1.  Hodnett had two HC's (Neither at a Posse track, and both were double digit increases) Hodnett never used a provisional, while Saldana and Madsen each used one.

So I say all of that to say this; look at the hairs we're splitting to say who is a better driver for a given year.  To say any one of these three drivers "kicked the other's ass", or "one is clearly better than the others" is ltalking out of their ass.  Yes 15 races is a small sample size, but dammit this is the best I can do right now.  Christ people, show the ability to use logic and reasoning once in awhile.  Don't simply emotion when making an argument.  Oh wait, I forgot.... I'm on Hosehead's.

PS- Blazer, use your head a little.  Any of the drivers who come into PA with a great "stature" aren't just going to take some shlub, no-name ride.  They are usually hopping into the best, or damn near the best equipment in PA.  e.g. Wolfgang with Weikert, or Pittman with Heffner just to name two off the top of my head.  Great drivers plus great equipment equal great results.

I don't for a minute think that the Posse is minor league. No more than our guys at Knoxville and the NSL are. They don't quite have the "wallets". That is what separates a good many locals from the WoO guys. Other than that I believe your post is right on. Given the right situation there are Posse drivers with enough talent to race anywhere.

For some reason you left out Stevie Smith & Dietrich....

I don't for a minute think that the Posse is minor league. No more than our guys at Knoxville and the NSL are. They don't quite have the "wallets". That is what separates a good many locals from the WoO guys. Other than that I believe your post is right on. Given the right situation there are Posse drivers with enough talent to race anywhere.

I should've been more specific. I meant that Central Pa is the minor leagues in comparison to the World of Outlaws. You have to race at a very high level to be a winner in Central Pa which is made apparent by how often our local racers beat and sometimes even dominate the WoO on our home turf but things change big time once the show moves away from Williams Grove, Lincoln and Port Royal. 

I understood your remark about being minor league. I don't see any minor leagues in sprint car racing. I look at it like this. I believe there are less than quailfied drivers at the local level, and even from time to time on the WoO tour. Those drivers are usually lacking in experience or are in a minor league ride. Everybody starts somewhere. I have no doubt that the very best that each area of the country has......at least 18-20 additional drivers could run with the WoO and be very competitive in the right equipment and with a more even playing field. That probably wouldn't dethrone Schatz, but the rest of the field would know they're being chased!    Today's racing is just too damn dependant on budget. The WoO tour proves that. Because of the huge budgets neccessary, owners get impatient. Some drivers that are good enough, aren't given enough time to develope. Or if they do well right out of the shoot, they're expected to rise to the top right away. When they don't, the owner looks for the next guy. Also, all too often drivers that can bring in family money or established drivers that can bring in their own sponsorship money to go along with the car owners sponsorship money usually get the ride. I don't always think they are the best or most deserving driver out there without a top ride. The other thing that weighs heavy is this.....there are a good many talented drivers around that don't want the headache of travel and being gone from home. You have 'em out there and so do we. Anyway.....I know we all have our opinions and it's all in good fun....most of the time     Right?

OK, sitting here bored on a cold, rainy day, waiting for tonite's festivities, I came up with this crazy idea for a special feature: Unequal equipment? How about after the feature, random draw & have drivers switch cars... or reverse cars/drivers with last place driver driving winning car, etc.

I know its nutty, unlikely to ever happen.... intentional wrecks? Detuning car before handing it over?

But if everybody played fair it would show who's the best driver...

I wonder what Altman would think?

You guys just keep grasping at straws to try and find anything you can hang your hat on in defending Posse. Maybe for Pittman it had something to do with being in a KKR car, and Donny having a terrible first third of the year. Besides, trying to classify Pittman as a Posse member and claiming he learned how to drive in PA is idiotic. 

Well...that's rich. One of the biggest bashers of racers and ****-stirrers on this entire board claiming posts are idiotic. No one said Pittman learned to drive when he went to PA. But he certainly was not dominant when he raced PA regularly. He then went back on tour and won the Outlaw title.

Did the Outlaws not crown a champion because of "Donny having a terrible third of the year?" Even by Hoseheads standards, that's pretty weak.

Good list and an enjoyable read!  Was wondering where Stevie was since he was very good, but no more than a part-timer!  Maybe top five if full-time?