|
|
|
|
|
Topic: Why “speed records” and ave. lap speeds in circle track racing are gimmicks
|
Email this topic to a friend |
Subscribe to this Topic
| Report this Topic to Moderator
|
|
Page 2 of 2 of 35 replies
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
11:53:14 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
03/07/2015
|
|
Posts:
|
5
|
|
|
|
I can tell you for a fact that Rolling Wheels is quite a bit larger than a half mile. I've been to quite a few true half miles and they're not as big as rwr. Outside of the miles the only dirt track I've been to that's bigger is WVMS in Mineral Wells WV and that place was huge before it was reconfigured.
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
01:10:27 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
01/27/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
411
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: lake_carl on October 13 2015 at 11:18:28 AM
I would like to see all tracks accurately measured say 5 feet off the bottom as this is then likely the shortest route, apply this measure to lap time to calculate the "speed they like to promote".
not sure anymore but Horse tracks used to do rather close distance measurements off the pole, and the big hyped nascar measures 5 feet off outside wall.
I have laughed often at people who claim some tracks is just as fast as another, but car on one runs a 642 gear and a 742 on the other
|
lake-carl you are very close, but do it as CART did it. Measure the inside of the track measure then outside track add divide by 2. That gives you the average size of the track.
No, it would be 10 feet off the bottom because of the how high the cars run down the straights.
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
03:34:31 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/12/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
228
|
|
|
|
Follow up to my ramblings.... I'm not saying Paul's speed was inflated (or anyone's speed). In fact, there are likely situations in which the average speed posted may be lower than reality. I'm just saying the math formulas are unreliable due to inaccurate track lengths and the varying distance of travel for a car each lap.
Like I said earlier, a good lap right around the bottom may yield a quicker lap time than a good lap around the top. But the average speed may be higher for the lap around the top that yields a "slower" lap time. The car on the top may carry a higher MPH for the whole lap than the car on the bottom.
This weekend proved Rolling Wheels is the fastest track on the circuit. Imagine if they added some banking....
"If you're gonna run the bottom, you might as well get
a real job."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
03:43:42 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/27/2004
|
|
Posts:
|
3751
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: champphotos on October 12 2015 at 05:14:19 PM
Google Earth is not a accurate measuring tool. I have to put this in another post yet, but the photos can be stretch 3-5% and take no account of earth or terrain. You can contact Mike Jones, former head of technical and mapping services for Google and ask if you like. Plus you are measuring straight lines, they are smaller than the arc of the curve.
GPS won't work unless you have $25k for the proper system. You would need a Real-Time Kinematic system not the ones for navigation or hunting. Real-Time is accurate to .5", nav and hunting GPS are only good for 30' radius. Not to mention your mostly in a bowl when in the track and satellites will get blocked.
Hand wheels are known to lose sometimes .5' per 100', especially on a uneven surface. Not to mention nobody walks a straight line, all the weaving would give a false number
If you wanted it done right you would need to 3d scan the track. That will take into account every possible change in the track, like banking.
You could also take the new drone planes that create topography and get a good distance.
DA
|
Buzzkill and I walked Eldora (and latert that year Kville) two laps around...one in the lowest raceable groove used all night...and 1 in the highest...added them together and divded by 2. scanning a track that WAS NOT RACED ON would give you anothet hypothetical.
If you have actual measurements rather than these high minded suppositions, post them.
Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better
weather." Van May
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
06:24:10 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/17/2008
|
|
Posts:
|
531
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: champphotos on October 12 2015 at 07:09:40 PM
Well if you can let me know how your going to solve multi-path and a mounting location, then you can tell me I am wrong. Also, how am I justifying the biggest lie in racing? You measure with your wheel and I will scan it and get it perfect.
|
What exactly does "multi-path" have to do anything? And mounting location???? Really??? If a Garmin 626 will work from the control wheel of my King Air aircraft, it will work mounted ANYWHERE on a sprintcar. Justifying is not acknowledging that PR people are trying to build hype by putting in a larger track size in the transponder receiver to make their cars sound faster than they really are.
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
08:32:48 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/13/2008
|
|
Posts:
|
419
|
|
|
|
What was the fastest average speed for a dirt track before Rolling Wheels? I'm assuming Syracuse or the Springfield mile. I'm also curious, what was Sammy's average at Bristol? I do remember it was considerably higher than Rusty Wallace's Bristol Cup record at that time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
10:32:15 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/21/2011
|
|
Posts:
|
188
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 13, 2015 at
10:33:58 PM by champphotos
You guys are right, what was I thinking. How dare anyone with any knowledge come on this board and give ideas or have the correct way to accomplish what you are asking. I forgot that this is the "I don't care if you have a Bachelors Degree and make a great living in the subjects you are talking about, even though I don't know the basics I know more than you" board. Fellas I am a surveyor, it is possible I know how to do what needs to be done. Nah, you guys have it covered with your wheels and walking.
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
10:46:23 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/13/2008
|
|
Posts:
|
419
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: champphotos on October 13 2015 at 10:32:15 PM
You guys are right, what was I thinking. How dare anyone with any knowledge come on this board and give ideas or have the correct way to accomplish what you are asking. I forgot that this is the "I don't care if you have a Bachelors Degree and make a great living in the subjects you are talking about, even though I don't know the basics I know more than you" board. Fellas I am a surveyor, it is possible I know how to do what needs to be done. Nah, you guys have it covered with your wheels and walking.
|
Lmao!!! I got a good laugh out of using a measuring wheel. I used to farm for a living. Now, I know a race track "should" be smoother than a farm field, but I've used those wheels before. I always wondered how far off they were when they were jumping and bouncing over clods, root wads, and etc.
|
|
|
|
|
October 13, 2015 at
10:54:34 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/26/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
3585
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: The_Truth_Detector on October 13 2015 at 06:24:10 PM
What exactly does "multi-path" have to do anything? And mounting location???? Really??? If a Garmin 626 will work from the control wheel of my King Air aircraft, it will work mounted ANYWHERE on a sprintcar. Justifying is not acknowledging that PR people are trying to build hype by putting in a larger track size in the transponder receiver to make their cars sound faster than they really are.
|
Consider it from this angle: Mounting the GPS on the right rear of the car will give you a different distance around an oval track than mounting the GPS on the left front of the car. It's like comparing a car racing around the bottom with one racing up by the wall. If lap times are the same, the car by the wall is traveling faster in miles per hour. The right rear tire is also moving faster than the left front tire in miles per hour.
The simple solution is to simply call every track out as being a 3/4 mile track. The track record for Husets Speedway is around 10 seconds per lap. Make Husets a 3/4 mile track, and the sprinters are going a whopping 270 per hour!!! on the fastest 3/4 mile dirt track in the upper midwest.
Who wouldn't go to see sprint cars going 270 miles per hour!!! Of course, that's just during qualifying. During the actual races, the speeds would probably be in the 250 range.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 14, 2015 at
12:24:55 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/02/2012
|
|
Posts:
|
13
|
|
|
|
This is too good to pass up; racing and surveying at the same time.
I would argue that scanning, photogrammetry, or GPS topography would produce an accurate and/or precise model of the facility, but not of the traveled path of the vehicle during timing. Hence, a true value to determine the rate of speed would still be unknown. We all know that the groove at any track, paved facilities included, will move during the course of an event.
In my surveying practice, I've found Google Earth measurements to be pretty close for obtaining rough distances (+/- 5' in half mile), despite the many forms of displacement inherent with rectifying photographs to the surface of the Earth. A good example of the displacement found in Google Earth is apparent when the user views the timeline feature. The features on the ground will shift positions against a placemark if selecting a different imagery date. Again, even if precice measurements were achievable at one's desktop, the actual travelled path during timing would still be unknown.
CA PLS 8759, CFedS 1546
|
|
|
|
|
October 14, 2015 at
12:46:47 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
07/16/2008
|
|
Posts:
|
1033
|
|
|
|
Wow ! You peope are really nitpicking now.
|
|
|
|
|
October 14, 2015 at
07:36:41 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/17/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
2326
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: tenter on October 14 2015 at 12:46:47 AM
Wow ! You peope are really nitpicking now.
|
Agreed. Rather than spend our time trying to find out the exact top speed a car has traveled why don't we we figure out why those same cars look like they're a freight train when then run a heat race?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 14, 2015 at
08:27:42 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/27/2004
|
|
Posts:
|
3751
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: champphotos on October 13 2015 at 10:32:15 PM
You guys are right, what was I thinking. How dare anyone with any knowledge come on this board and give ideas or have the correct way to accomplish what you are asking. I forgot that this is the "I don't care if you have a Bachelors Degree and make a great living in the subjects you are talking about, even though I don't know the basics I know more than you" board. Fellas I am a surveyor, it is possible I know how to do what needs to be done. Nah, you guys have it covered with your wheels and walking.
|
Like I said go ahead, get out your wheel and get busy...I used a surveyor's wheel (that I use to make my living) when I measured Eldora with as licensed architect walking right beside me.
curious why you are taking a position that seems to support a straw man argiment that the WoO EVER used a surveyor's wheel to substantiate their claims?
Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better
weather." Van May
|
|
|
|
|
October 16, 2015 at
10:13:21 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/09/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
428
|
|
|
|
who gives a shit about the distance . Watch the video and he is hauling ass. Bad ass fast
|
|
|
|
|
October 16, 2015 at
12:34:03 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
01/06/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
448
|
|
|
|
I prefer to use the (stand by fence+fear=speed) method to determine speed.
If I am standing by the fence and a 4-banger goes by I don't even flinch = slow as hell.
When a sprinter goes by and I have to take 1 step back and clean out my pants = damn fast. 2 steps back = really damn fast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 17, 2015 at
12:31:14 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
05/17/2008
|
|
Posts:
|
531
|
|
|
|
Surveying doesn't mean a thing when calculating average speed from a known stop/start point. Trade that BS degree in for some basic math and you might be able to grasp the concept.
|
|
|
