Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Let’s be honest here...any organization, track, race team, etc. that claims a speed record and/or uses an average lap speed as a form of comparison or benchmarking  is doing so only to attract attention/publicity as that measurement holds absolutely no merit.

There are way too many variables involved to calculate the average speed measurement correctly and simply using a time variable and an arbitrary track length value (that usually is nowhere close to the actual distance) will not lend itself to an accurate calculation.

I’ve been to and raced on several tracks that advertise themselves as a 1/3 mile, 3/8 mile, ½ mile, and 5/8 mile when in reality there isn’t a groove on the track that will produce those lengths.  Hell, I’ve even seen the same track officially classified as 2 different lengths from one year to another without any changes being made to the track!  It’s this “arbitrary” track length that is what is then used in conjunction with the scoring loop to generate average lap speeds and therein lies the problem at most tracks from the start.  Not to mention the obvious that the inside groove is shorter than the outside groove and if a track is advertised as a 3/8 mile but is more like a ¼ mile along the bottom groove, any lap ran there will have a false speed calculation that will be inflated from the actual value.

Now in fairness, there are tracks that can meet the advertised distance somewhere on the racing surface, but a couple that have been discussed in recent headlines cannot.  0.625 miles is the “arbitrary” track length used to calculate an average lap speed of 145.527 mph when in reality, the highest line around the track measures barely over 0.55 miles and the bottom line is about 0.48 miles.  For a lap of 15.461 seconds, the highest possible average speed can be no more than around 128 mph – and that is if the car traveled along the longest distance around the track, which we know didn’t happen. 

Also, the previous track that owned the “fastest lap” is calculated as 0.50 miles but at best measures that distance along the outside wall (more like 0.48 miles around the top though), so again the advertised average lap speed would be impossible and anything even remotely close to that speed would have had to come running a lap all the way against the outside wall for the entire perimeter.

Also, I’d be willing to bet that the car never hit the “average lap speed” recorded even at the end of the straightaway at either track, but that is beside the point.  The point is, the only benchmark for a lap should be time, and time only.

You are correct, and most any track will do this.   I've seen Devils Bowl do it.   The advertise and calculate their average speeds based on 1/2 mile, which in fact it isn't.    It does make a difference as far as average speeds.   The real issue is this though, was the racing worth talking about?

the only way to travel a half mile at Eldora is to drive in the grass outside the catch fence...

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

     Husets would measure a true 3/8 mile measured about 10 out beyond the outside wall.

I imagine the only accurate way to measure average speed would be via GPS.  Even a speedometer would be inaccurate.  The rear wheels spin a lot faster than the car.  And the front wheels lock up or are off the ground sometimes.

Maybe 4 - 6 radar guns around the track could clock a car.  Take an average of the speeds.  That might get you in the ballpark.

If you think about it.....   if a track is wide enough (with legit racing lines on the very bottom and the fence, say Kokomo), a car ripping around the top could have a higher average speed than a car clocking lower lap times on the bottom. So a higher average speed may not actually mean a lower lap time.  

"If you're gonna run the bottom, you might as well get 
a real job."

For those tracks that insist on boasting mph, they need to accurately measure the middle groove with a walk around hand held wheel distance calculater. Even then, accuracy will be in question because of car position around the entire track. I really pay no attention to mph, especially when they announce a ridicululous speed, because I know there are too many variables. Lap time is the only thing I consider and the only thing that matters.

I'm sure you're right, but who really cares? I go to watch the competition. Its not Bonneville or drag racing

I find it interesting information. If it's accurate.

For example:

At Lernerville on a weekly basis we list it as .40 miles. When the Outlaws are in town, their scoring system is set to .45 miles (longer track, faster average speed). Who's right and wrong doesn't matter in this case, I'm just pointing out that this is one of the many ways that posted speeds can vary.

GPS is to Sprint Car MPH as truth is to this message board. How dare you suggest such a thing!

OK

You might be right, it mostly is a gimmick, but having a gimmick is a good way to get people talking.  Also it helps but butts in the seats, which I think everyone can agree is the most important thing.

Not sure where you're coming from here, or maybe you don't understand what average speed represents.   If you travel 1/4 mile on the highway in 15 seconds, then your average speed is 60 mph.    Noone needs a radar gun or GPS, it's simple math.  

I frequently measure tracks using Google Earth's ruler tool. It's very interesting to see how things measure from their satellite view compared to what the track claims. According to Google Earth, there are plenty of 1/2 miles that are actually 4/10 miles and there are plenty of 3/8 miles that are actually 1/4 miles.

Ask Frank

Google Earth is not a accurate measuring tool. I have to put this in another post yet, but the photos can be stretch 3-5% and take no account of earth or terrain. You can contact Mike Jones, former head of technical and mapping services for Google and ask if you like. Plus you are measuring straight lines, they are smaller than the arc of the curve.

GPS won't work unless you have $25k for the proper system. You would need a Real-Time Kinematic system not the ones for navigation or hunting. Real-Time is accurate to .5", nav and hunting GPS are only good for 30' radius. Not to mention your mostly in a bowl when in the track and satellites will get blocked. 

Hand wheels are known to lose sometimes .5' per 100', especially on a uneven surface. Not to mention nobody walks a straight line, all the weaving would give a false number  

If you wanted it done right you would need to 3d scan the track. That will take into account every possible change in the track, like banking. 

You could also take the new drone planes that create topography and get a good distance.

DA

As a die hard fan, the whole average speed thing and exaggerating the sizes of some tracks annoys me because I feel like it insults my intelligence. I know aa true half mile when I see one so don't try and tell me your 4/10 mile is a "short half". There's no such thing as a " short half". It's either a half mile or its not. No in between. That said, it really doesn't hurt anything though. It's actually a good promotional tool to attract new people. Hearing that Rolling Wheels Speedway is the fastest track in the world could finally push someone who has considered checking out a race over the line and finally get them to attend. Once that happens, you may just end up getting someone who becomes a die hard and introduces other people to the sport. That isn't a bad thing at all even if it is annoying to us die hards who know better. I've introduced at least 35-40 people to sprint car racing and all of then became repeat customers. Some even became as die hard as I am. But every single time I took a new person to the races, the first question they asked once they picked their jaw up off the floor after warm ups was "how fast are they going?" So when people hear of insanes speeds, it naturally peaks their interest and it may just end up creating a new fan or 2. 

You are wrong. A WalMart GPS unit will work just fine, just as a measurement wheel will be just fine. Quit trying to justify the biggest lie in racing. Another point...........What kind of gear was Paulie running, that tells me everything I need to know.

Well if you can let me know how your going to solve multi-path and a mounting location, then you can tell me I am wrong. Also, how am I justifying the biggest lie in racing? You measure with your wheel and I will scan it and get it perfect. 

I understand average speed.  But to properly calculate average speed, you must know the exact distance the car traveled during it's lap.  That's the challenge on an oval track.  Different lines equal different distances of travel.  Can't use the same distance for every formula.  Not to mention most tracks aren't exactly the distance they're advertised to be.  i.e. Eldora is not a half mile. 

"If you're gonna run the bottom, you might as well get 
a real job."