Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Central Pennsylvania needs Knoxville-like Sprint Car extravaganza (Here's how)

I like this concept a lot, although the argument could be made that that National Open is moving this direction.  It is already equal to the Kings Royal in winners purse, and gaining on the amount to start.  All they need to do is kick it up a notch to say 100k to win and 3k to start, and they are going to put the rest of the country on notice.

Another interesting idea, which I don't think will happen, is to try adding the ASCS National series as the undercard.  For anyone who remembers the short lived US Sprint Nationals at Terre Haute, featucing USAC, ASCS National and WoO Gumout, it was a sprint car paradise.

Please do not complain when you have a hard time getting local teams to support another "mini speed week" worth of races.  These teams are not full-time professional teams and the drivers, owners and team members have full time jobs else where.  You can count on one hand how many teams are "professional" full time teams.  Even if there is a day or two break; you are still asking alot.  Teams who want to be competitive in these types of races end up spending a lot of money to do so; i.e. fresh tires, fresh motors, etc.  Apparently you are not familiar with those costs.  I know a lot of teams that go looking for extra $$ for outlaw shows, just to cover the tire bill and help with a motor freshening.  These are not teams back by multi-million dollar corporations.  I don't care what the pay out may or not be; first things first - you need to guarantee it will get paid!!  Second of all, the teams need to be able to afford to get there in the first place.  And, you are talking the end of the season, so budgets & bank accounts will be fairly dry.  OH and tell me - you think then maybe the teams should "adjust their schedule" to accommodate money, vacation time and resources to run these races at the end of the season.  So then you guarantee you won't be bitching because teams aren't showing up at races in the middle to end of summer. ??really??  

OH by the way, Port already has a 2 day event in September, remember???  

OH by the way, fans around here work for a living too, so what races should they give up and vacation trips too so that they can afford to pay the over inflated general admission, food, lodging, etc.......

And part of the Knoxville, IA convenience (besides the fact that its in the middle of the summer (vacation time) it's well attended because it is so centrally located - all but right in the middle of the country.

given what we have seen so far in terms of participation / attendance...watch how speedweek works this year before your eyes get bigger than your stomach.

1 thing the Grove has in common with Kville so far this year: barren front stretch grandstand

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

I like the thought (as a midwesterner, I might come out to PA to take in that much racing), but as an outsider I think there are many other things to address first before you work on having a huge multi-day event.

Fan amenities -- name em' off -- I'm sure they are all needed

Lighting at the tracks needs upgraded (pretty much every single track in America needs this with 1 or 2 exceptions).

Track Prep -- it needs to be consistent throughout the year and year to year (good surfaces on tracks that guys can pass on will bring drivers)

Safety -- As Donny Schatz has said -- that dent in the top of the fence was there the first time I raced here, and it's still there nearly 20 years later (maybe it's time to spend some $$ fixing some things)

Back Gate Promoting -- I HATE THIS -- there is no need for ANY support class at a big race, if the track needs that to make ends meet, they aren't running a very good business IMO. 

Teams -- hard sell to local teams to spend all that $$ and vacation time from their regular jobs just so someone else takes a majority of the $$$ back somewhere else.  Work on making sure your local racers are taken care of and then work on a big event.

Dillution of the product -- IMO, PA is gonna see smaller and smaller crowds soon at WoO races because there are just too many of them in the area.  Knoxville used to do this in the 80's (April 2 day show, July 2 or 3 day show, Nationals and a 3 day show in October) and people starting picking an choosing instead of going to all of them.  Now, they have 1 date in June and they "participate" in the Nationals.  That June show is now a "must see" for those "fringe fans" as opposed to "they'll be back again in a month, maybe the weather will be nicer then".  I hope it doesn't happen, but it will (it's just like any other sporting events, eventually supply exceeds the demand)

I agree with it all.  Especially the back gate promoting.  I hate more than anything when port Royal has big races (50, weikert memorial, etc.) that have those terrible boring classes that just nobody cares to watch.  Im just waiting for the grove to start back gating outlaw shows.  With the Weikert Memorial expanding to two days next season, there's plenty of multi day races in he area throughout the year. I'm not complaining about GA prices because for the most part theyre fair.  But when you add another outlaw show that's another 35$ just in admission for the extra day of the Natty Open.  Plus people have to take another day off of work if you're coming from out of the area.  Again, Im not complaining because at least I have tracks to choose from and shows to watch.  But it's something to think about from some fans point of views.

I totally agree with everyone. I don't think Pennsylvania can handle much more than there is right now. Like everyone else said, the fans work for a living and most of us aren't exactly wealthy. I know I'm sure as hell not. I have to get real creative with my budgeting to hit as many races as I do and still keep the water running and the lights on. I think our area has reached the limit with the amount of races we can support. We have definitely reached the limit for the amount of outlaw races we can support. Honestly, I think we maybe have 1 or 2 too many WoO shows. One subject of debate recently has been car counts in central Pa and I constantly see people blaming the economy, too many different sprint classes etc. But one thing I haven't seen anyone blame which I think may just be the biggest reason for the decline in car counts is the amount of races we have here. I hate to say that because I'd go to a race every day if I could but I think there's just too many. We start at the end of February and the last race is in mid November at Susquehanna. Its just too much and the teams and fans are given too many races to choose from. I noticed when looking at the various schedules in the offseason that there are more 3 race weekends this year than I think I've ever seen with Susquehanna, Path Valley, and Selinsgrove hosting specials for 410's on Sundays plus throw in Bedford having a couple of ASCoC shows that will undoubtedly be supported by some teams and fans from Central Pa. Then of course there's speedweek and several other “mini speedweeks" throughout the year as one other poster eluded to. The fans and teams dollar is just getting spread too thin. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just how I see it. As far as the back gate promoting, we are definitely seeing more of that too and unfortunately, I think its going to be a necessary evil going forward. I would love to see Pennsylvania have a Knoxville type deal but I just don't think its possible. I'm not even 100% sold on the 3 day National Open being a success. I think it most likely will be but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't simply because of the cost involved for the fans to attend 3 WoO shows in a row. I guess we'll see.

Good points by all. Here are a couple of tweaks to make it work.

1) There are too many races in PA. That is what I mentioned in the story taking a summer break at each track, the Knoxville Nationals, being the perfect time. Also, do we really need to start in February and end in November. Streamline the season and an event like this works. I find it amusing that people care about the owners and drivers in this case and don't care when Lincoln runs a show with water running across the track and it's 35 degrees out.

2) The week proposed is only two more races. Sure, they would be on a Sunday and Monday, but then the guy that works or doesn't want to attend doesn't have to attend. If he or she can, great. I believe you would have enough traveling guys and a good mix of  locals to pull 35 cars on a Monday.

3) Price. This is a promoter deal. The Williams Grove Open and Dirt Classic are going to cost what they do. The key is not jacking up the price on the Sunday-Monday show. 

4) I hate the support division and back gate process, but it is here to stay. No avoiding it. The Kings Royal even has the 360s on the card and I don't hear anyone saying Tony Stewart doesn't promote well or that complaining that they are on the docket that night. You stick an invitational for 358s or 360s on the card Sunday and Monday, and it will be fine.

5) Money is always an object for the consumer, I get that. Again, that's why I think trimming some of the schedule throughout the year would help with the cost of something like this. As for World of Outlaws sanctioning, you don't use it for anything other than the Grove. Throw the All Stars on the Dirt Classic — the sanction fee is dramatically less — and go unsanctioned on the Sunday-Monday.

This was all just an idea. I got to thinking about  Knoxville and what goes on that week and thought Central Pa. was a good place for something to mirror that extravaganza. Sure, there are hiccups. That is the case with any show or project. Still would be curious to see how it would work.

Good points Jeremy, but going to have to comment on the Kings Royal comment.  Having 360 there make sense because some drivers do double duty those nights, people have heard of 360's and in my opinion, they are awesome to watch around that place.  Having 358, 360's, and late models are one thing.  But having all American outlaws, and econo lates, nobody cares for.  They just don't put on the show 360's at Eldora do.  How many people are excited to go to Port Royal to watch the 410 and then be glad to see he econo lates, or legends are there? I think if they would add 360 to the Tuscarora 50 weekend, it would be more than a great show for everyone. 

Ok, here's a few thoughts on your thoughts:

1).  It's high time people do care about the owners and drivers!  Unfortunately Lincoln is not one of them.  IF you are racing for a track championship and you have indicated to your sponsors that you are going to do everything possible to win it, then you don't miss going to point races.  Major applause to Dietz-Dewease for NOT racing on opening day.  I was an owner who put a car on the track at Lincoln for many years (probably too many) and always went to win and to win the track championship.  Many Many opening days and subsequent races were held or started because of the almighty $$. And, another unfortunate thing is the fans that belittle teams for caring more about their driver's safety and the entire season's budget, dont' have a clue.

2).  You're also talking about fall in central PA, football, school, etc........  Sorry I think football will win.

3).  Good luck getting anyone to hold on that.  No one locally has been able to persuade a local promotor not to gouge on WoO tickets. 

4).  My only gripe would be if it's a time trial show, you gotta keep the support division off the track until after the 410s hotlap and time trial.  Especially if its a stock car division. 

5).  Racing is a summer sport; it's where it sits in main stream of life's schedule.  I don't think they should be sanctioned - not all (hate that the Tuscy 50 is sanctioned, even if it's one night and they run their format anyway on Sat).  But good luck with that - especially where the grove is concerned.

BTW, if somethings don't soon approve at the Grove, they may loose a WoO race.  The place is getting pretty bad.

And, the 3 day format for the National Open is a stupid idea in my book.  The july event was 3 days and that's gone.  It's too much at one time.  You want more than 2 day events....go to Knoxville in August to get your fix.

The Grove won't lose a WoO date anytime soon (as long as they pay the sanction fee, the WoO will show up).

They would keep same dates. But Sunday at Grove and Port Royal wouldn't have to be.