Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Format change would make the Williams Grove National Open bigger and better

I prefer the Kings Royal format.  Makes for much better racing, and an interesting night the whole night, not worried about points.

Something to keep in mind with that suggestion (and as far as I know, a format change for National Open has never even been discussed):  Both Knoxville and the Kings Royal are show up points only for the World of Outlaws.  (Reason being:  platinum members sign contracts stating that series points are earned accoring to the standard WoO format.  Anything that ISN'T standard WoO format, therefore, is not a points earning event.)  With only a month to go in the season, I don't see it being fair to the full time WoO teams to have 3 nights of non-point racing, even if it IS for a big purse on Saturday.  

Do I believe there's a way to make the pill draw less important at ALL WoO shows? Yes. . .  and I've made suggestions.  But I'm not sure the biggest (and best attended) sprint car race on the East Coast needs much tweaking, if any.   Just my $.02

Yep, can't expect "outlaws" to race for points if it is not their standard format! Didn't the WoO start out as "we are going to come to your track, run your rules and kick your a$$es"?  I have a problem with the WoO sanctioning an event if it is not a full points event. If it is a WoO race it should be a full points race.

I look at it the other way. Why make the WoO teams race a non WoO format. Put it on the schedule as an open race, if you want to run date for the WoO teams. Some may not want to run the race others not...

The Knoxville system works so well because they get so many cars.  If they are still going to pay 50k to win Saturday night, you can't stretch this out to a 3 day show.  Especially because you aren't going to get many (if any) more cars.  So instead of seeing two nights of racing with 60+ cars, you see 2 nights with maybe 35 cars and 1 night that is consi's until the A main.  All this would do is water down the product and make it more costly for fans to go for the whole weekend (extra night on a hotel room, extra night of tickets, extra food, etc.)

I actually liked the format before they changed to two seperate programs.  Having the top 4 from Friday night locked in to Saturday's show made for good, hard racing to try to get to that 4th spot.

And if you think that it's a good idea to make this an open race and if the WoO teams show, great and if they don't oh well, that's a bad idea.   First off, the WoO would schedule a race on the same dates.  Secondly, fans pour through the gates at this race because it's the WoO v. the Posse for 50 grand.  If it was just the Posse and guys like Brian Brown, Terry McCarl, and Dale Blaney I don't think people would care nearly as much.

why not announce it at the driver's meeting when you tell them the work area has been relocated to the Lincoln infield for both nights of racing?

sure would speed up the show

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

I for one don't think they should change to Knoxville Format (or King's Royal), they need to come up with their own that makes it unique to them (if everyone uses the same format, it's "just another race").  What makes the Nationals, King's Royal and Trophy Cup unique (they all use their own format and they don't use each others).

I'm not from PA, so I don't know what the local fans would want, but my personal format would look like this.  (give 100 points for QT and down by 1 point per position, then have quicktime draw an invert # for heats (minimum 4 / maximum 10, give 200 points to win your heat, down by 5 per position and an additional 5 bonus points for every car you pass).  Top 4 cars to feature, line up feature by invert of 6,8,10 or 12 (invert by points, not times) to be pulled by top point man after heats --even if he's in the B-main), B-main cars line up behind those that transferred through the heats).

Spread the $$$ out so it pays $2000 to start (if you want to entice travelers), (1) provisional for top point car that didn't make the main (maybe had QT, and finished 5th in his heat and then ended up 5th in the B).

It's got to be unique or it's "just another race" and it's got to pay a good purse (doesn't have to be $50,000 to win if it's only gonna pay $700 to start.  I'm sure most racers would rather see it pay $20,000 to win if it meant $2000 to start (and maybe 2nd place would pay $15,000. 

Hey Johnny, hope all is well. That is a fair point and you are correct, it is a great event and very well attended. However, I constantly hear about the pay structure and it not being worth it for non-outlaw or local teams to tow in for this race. If we want to have one of the "Big 3" events, then there is no reason to stop progress and see if there is a bigger and better way to do something. 

I agree with GATORS as I posted on the earlier Stewart Mottern post,I think the best way to improve would be let the Grove run the Saturday show ,like they do at The Kings Royal and Knoxville. 

Maybe have the EARLY SHOW COSANCTIONED by another group which would help giving you a better mix.

When talking about "outside teams" towing in for the National Open, keep this in mind: The Open has had a larger car count than the Kings Royal for the past 5 years.  I would also argue that in order to go to 3 days and split the field, you'd need to gain 15-20 additional cars to make the preliminary nights "worth it" as far as fan entertainment value compared to the present format.  And one of the things that makes the National Open one of the three toughest (in my opinion) races to qualify for/win in the United States is one of the same things that will keep many "outside teams" from towing in even IF the Saturday A-main paid $2000 to start:  the level of competition in central PA is SO fierce, and the track is unique in shape.  I just don't see this race adding days/changing formats (or NEEDING to do so).  Just my opinion. . .

I love Knoxvilles points deal....for the fans it adds a lot of drama.

Johnny, you bring up good points. But in my opinion, names make the show. Car counts are important to a point, but if you have 30-35 a night, as long as the quality is there, that is what means the most to fans. Talking to fans in Pennsylvania, they want to see Danny Lasoski back, they want to see Brian Brown, they want to get Rico Abreu. I think something needs to be done to make it worthwhile for those guys to come in. Sort of like Knoxville. And let's be honest, there are only a handful of guys that can win the National Open. I'm not buying that it is wide open, not Saturday night. Still, you bring up valid considerations and I appreciate the discussion. Look forward to seeing you guys this weekend.

Again, in my opinion:  The addition of a few more "outside teams" won't mean enough of an increase in attendence to justify the large increase in purse that going to 3 days and/or$1500-2000 to start would require.  And increasing the B main purse on Saturday would require putting even more money into the purse--money that I don't see being made up in additional attendence.  (Again, we're back to the point of the strength of the entire field:  Not only is the race incredibly difficult to WIN, but it's also VERY difficult just to qualify for the A-main.  Even during the Summer Nationals in July, there were 3 drivers that were in the C-main one night and in the A the other, and and addtional 13 drivers that only qualified one of the 2 A-features.)

And for what it's worth, I enjoy the discussion as well. . .

I love the 3 day shows from summer nationals past, the format rewarded points every time you were out there, and made for some really good racing. But there's a reason it's now a 2 day show. The Thursday show was always a tough sell, while Saturday was packed.   

As for the argument to pay more, how bout you just do it? To say the grove needs to find addl revenue to add 10-15 grand to Saturdays purse is silly. With a 40k purse on Friday and a 110k purse on Saturday, a Good Friday crowd can pay the weekend purse alone. I know there are quite a lot more expenses then just the purse, but I don't think the grove would be hurting if it added a 750-1000 to the last 15 spots on Saturday.