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From The Wingless Warriors by Buzz Rose

1985 "the CRA established an engine displacement limit for the first time in the club's 39-year history. The proliferation of drag racing based engine technology over the past five years caused a huge spike on engines and component parts. The old iron-block 350 cu. In. Chevrolet was slowly replaced by purpose-built aluminum monsters now capable of 450 cu. In. displacement. Both USAC and the World of outlaws had already gone to a 410" limit and the CRA followed suit in an effort to stabilize cost and perhaps increase their car count as a result.

Good idea back then. Still a good idea today?

Unlike the wingers, there is no doubt that today's non-wing sprint car racing is on a very level playing field with a professionally built 410 and an experienced crew and driver. It's also the most exciting form of racing on the planet and I hate the idea of limiting or slowing down the cars in any way.

So, the BIG question is~ What can be done to reduce the cost of racing one of these beasts, so the working man can stay in the game?

I would like to hear some considered opinions on the 410 cid rule.

It's my opinion that a no cid limit rule with a 75 pound aluminum motor weight penalty, would give the professional and back-yard engine builders a hundred different ways to build an engine with enough H.P,. At an affordable price, to get the job done.

And, apparently it doesn't take that much H.P. these days to be competitive.

Some quotes from the respected RichCee

"The non-wing cars might qualify a little quicker but as it is these cars have way more horsepower than they can put down particularly with the restricted tires they have to run."

"Horsepower is not always the end all/get all. Ask Terry (CRA91) how much horsepower they were giving up to everyone else when they were winning all those races with Leland."

Question; If 700 H.P. is non-competitive, what is the magic H.P. number these days to be competitive with an experienced crew and driver?

"Depends on which track you are racing it and what time of year it is. To pull a number out of my backside, I'd say 760+"

Thanks in Advance,

Don

I keep hearing how much horsepower is this or that.

It seems to me that torque is being overlooked.

So how much torque is a decent 410 cu. in motor putting out?

I think the 410s are kinda overkill yea they have alot of power and torque but they can still be beat by a much smaller motor with less HP i know that from this past weekend when my team out ran a bunch of 410s in the usac cra race in santa maria

....from the respected RichCee....

Okay Mom, you can stop posting now.

So how much torque is a decent 410 cu. in motor putting out?

This is where the 410 steps all over the 360.  I'm not sure where the Silver Crown 355 motors are these days but when when I looked a few years ago, they were making nearly the same HP as a 410 but way down on torque.  The big money 410's make almost as much torque as HP.  It's been a while since I've looked at the numbers but my guess would be the 360's are down 100-200 ft/lbs to a 410. 

It's my opinion that a no cid limit rule with a 75 pound aluminum motor weight penalty, would give the professional and back-yard engine builders a hundred different ways to build an engine with enough H.P,. At an affordable price, to get the job done.

Most of the "keep up with the Joneses" 410 money these days goes towards cylinder heads and lighter weight.  As far as weight goes, USAC already has a reasonable weight rule but as long as other "professional" series still allow or implicitly allow lightweight motors there will always be a supply of lightweight motor/parts to trickle down to the weekend racer and they will use them.  In the same way that big horsepower does not always win, the same is true with weight. (i.e. Jones/Alexander).  I'm not convinced aluminum blocks are entirely bad.  Aluminum blocks are repairable even from some pretty catastrophic looking events whereas a steel block can only be repaired with certain limited types of damage.  It's not as if you can toss a rod out the side of a steel block go down to the Chevy dealer buy a new block to throw your parts into and go from there.  There's a lot of money in machining these blocks.

As far as cylinder heads go, the ASCS rule seems to have worked pretty well in keeping 360 costs down and they do have an ASCS 410 head.  I guarantee you that the fan in the stands will not be able to tell the different between a racecar running the lastest heads and an ASCS head.  So if it makes complete sense and it can save money, then why isn't the ASCS head all the rage?  The reason why not is the oldest one is racing.  Politics.  ASCS is a competing sanctioning body to USAC/WoO/etc.  Even as we sit here today, I guarantee you that the boys on 16th street in Indy are glowering that "their" racers are traveling west to run ASCS races.  Racers being racers, they will always have "motor envy" and want something better than the other guy.  Where the perceived problem comes in is that only about 30% have the wallet to keep up with the other guy and you develop haves and have nots.  Besides, you give me a heavy non-wing car that's down on horsepower with a Yeley/Kruseman/Stanbrough/Darland/Jones driving any day and we'll figure out a way to win with it.  I'm not being a braggart about my abilities in saying that, I'm pointing out that the nut holding the wheel makes a big difference.

So if I were king and the mandate from the people was "make racing cheaper", one of the things I do is go with 410 motors with ASCS heads.  Then again if I were king, I'd probably end up with a queen and things would go downhill pretty quick after that.

Good!

Ok, maybe someone could set-up a poll named;
"What would make sprint car engines/motors cheaper?"
Anyone could enter their favorite combination.

1. OHV, 410 CID, ASCS Heads, Methanol Fuel, Current Weight.
2. OHV, Any CID, Any Head, Methanol Fuel, Minimum weight up75lbs.
3. OHV, Any CID, Any Head, Any Fuel, Current Weight.

One other thing I forgot to mention. Just because a motor is a steel block 360 doesn't mean it's cheaper. The idea behind a 360 is to have lower costs than a 410 but you have to have limitations in place to make sure it stays that way. At one time there was such a thing known as a "Knoxville 360" The only rule was steel block on 360ci. They could run any head/injector/etc. Those things were out of control. They made close to 410 type HP and anytime one started up, it was the same as pulling the pin. They cost more to build/maintain than a 410 and didn't last nearly as long. Knoxville's intention was right in that they saw the way the 410 cost's were going and decided to try to create a cheaper entry class but the racers themselves are the ones who got the costs way out of control. The ASCS head grew directly out of that situation.

Anybody trying to equalize disparate motor types to be competitive needs to really think about what technologies exist now and what ones might be on the horizon before coming up with an equalizer. And even then there's no guarantee that you will get it right. Look at the Indy 500. They used to have a rule allowing more cubic inches and more turbo boost to a pushrod valve motor than an overhead cam motor. Their intention was to try to come up with a way for someone to take a silver crown motor or a Buick V6 and have it be able to run with the Cosworth type 4cam racing engines. So along comes MercedesBenz spends a bunch of money to build a special Indy only pushrod motor with 3 inch long pushrods that will turn 11,000rpm for 500 miles and making 200HP more than anyone else. They went out there with a car that handled like a pig and won the race. Indy promptly outlawed the motor and Penske fails to make the race the next year because their car still handled like a pig but didn't have the horsepower to overcome it.

By no means am I against innovation but the more disparate motor types you allow, the more the costs will be. I'm sorry but having formulas like the type you propose will only drive the costs up, not down.

1. V8, 410 CID, OHV, ASCS Heads, Methanol Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Weight.

2. V8, Any CID, OHV, Any Head, Methanol Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Weight up 75lbs.

3. V8, Any CID, OHV, Any Head, Any Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Weight.

4. V8, Any CID, Any Head Configuration, Any Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Weight.

5. V8, Any CID, Any Head Configuration, Any Fuel, Any Aspiration, Current Weight.

6. Any Engine, Any Fuel, Any Aspiration, Current Weight.

TORQUE.... I'm surprised that no one is talking about the 410cu inch rule that is not being enforced???

Hi Steve,

I am contacting you and your staff because of your wide experience with the top engine-building teams in the country.

Out her in SoCal, we are having a debate about how to reduce the cost of engines used in Non-Wing sprint car racing.

Everyone seems to agree that in Non-Wing sprint car racing, right around 800 H.P. with an experienced crew and driver is more than enough to win races, especially with the restricted tires they have to run. One of the neat things about the old days was you saw a variety of engines. Now, all we see is the 40-45 thousand dollar formula engine which is forcing the backbone of the sport, the working man, out!

Keeping in mind the beauty of the situation, that anything much over 800 H.P. will overpower the track,

We came up with a few different rule ideas.

1. V8, 410 CID, OHV, Spec Heads, Methanol Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Car Weight.

2. V8, Any CID, OHV, Any Head, Methanol Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Car Weight up 75lbs.

3. V8, Any CID, OHV, Any Head, Any Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Car Weight.

4. V8, Any CID, Any Head Configuration, Any Fuel, Normal Aspiration, Current Car Weight.

5. V8, Any CID, Any Head Configuration, Any Fuel, Any Aspiration, Current Car Weight.

6. Any Engine, Any Fuel, Any Aspiration, Current Car Weight.

Now, the big question is, do you think the top creative engine-building teams of today, using good old American ingenuity, could build and sell a reliable, competitive 800 H.P. engine in the twenty to twenty-five thousand dollar price range?

I know one thing for sure, if it were possible to do so, we would once again have one class of Non-Wing sprint car racing, instead of today's fragmented 305-360-410 mess.

My personal favorite rule is number six because you might have a hundred different ways to do it and you probably would have the only unlimited engine racing in the world that the little man could still be a player in.

Would you or any of staff be willing to give us an opinion on this?

Thanks for your consideration,