Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I am part of a group looking to bring sprint cars to western North Dakota.  We are in the very beginning of exploring options for rules, engines, ect.  One of the main goals of all this is to bring in new drivers and the 305 Racesaver sprint car looks like a good option.  I'm looking for information on 305 engine builders, price of a new, race ready 305, and where is the closest tracks to North Dakota that run the Racesaver 305?  What is the difference between a Racesaver 305 and a Knoxville 305?  Thanks.

Racesaver is a good option!

No organization is perfect, but they are one of the few making a sincere effort to tech and control their engine platform.

Check your e-mail Racerx20.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Knoxville and Burlington, Ia run all steel 305 while Racesaver use alum. heads.  Knoxville 305 heads allow 200 cc intake runners while Racesaver are alot smaller.  The Knoxville 305 would have approx. 50 more HP.  Racesavor 305 have very strict rules on what valve spring and valves you can use.  Knoxville allows anything in valves and springs except no Ti.  I suggest you go to the Racesavor nationals in Nebraska later this summer to take a look.  There are alot of Racesavor engines in Nebraska.  Knoxville and Burlington are sort of one of a kind in this area of country and you could not race them anyplace else.  Racesavor seems to be growing inyour part of midwest.  Good luck.

I'm just curious how much the motors are for the 305's @ Knoxville/Burlington tracks compared to IMCA's 305 engine.

RacerX20 - Are you still interested in NOSA sprint rules & having 305's as a 2nd Sprint class or are you just looking at different options for Sprint cars up your way.

Nothing has been discussed yet, just getting a feel for what is out there for sprint car options.  The Racesaver 305 might be the best option for getting new drivers into a sprint car or for drivers to move from a class into sprints.  The engines are affordable and the car is a standard sprint car, so perspectve drivers could purchase used cars for not a lot of money.  From what I have read so far, a Racesaver engine go from anywhere from $4000-$8000.  Knoxville 305's are a more open and they can reach all the way to almost $20,000.

Better talk to drivers about how much a RaceSaver 305 is running them.  I know one that runs in DSM is spending wayyy more than that $4000-8000 range on their RaceSaver (more like $16,000).

IMCA touts a price, but that is the LOW END price.  Racers will spend as much as it takes to be the fastest....

The engine rules are the hallmark of the Racesaver.  The heads and cam rules are such that you can't turn the engines very hard.  Spending a bunch of money doesn't really gain you much in the end as you can't modify anything on the engines.

supposedly anyway....like I said above, better talk to guys that are actually spending teh $$$$.  IMCA will give you the company line of how "cheap" or "affordable" it is, just like their "crate" engines for Mod's are "cheap" and "affordable" at higher price tags than open engines were going for....

You CAN spend $25000-30000 for a Racesaver power plant if you so desire, but in all practicality you aren't gaining much more than 50-60 horsepower. You CAN buy solid gold pedals and platinum wing mounts, but is it going to help you win??

The driver who ran second in last years Racesaver IMCA Sprint Super Nationals had an $8000 motor in and came from far back in the field to take second. Don't buy into the hype that an extra $12000-17000 is going to win you every race you run.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

I'm not, what I'm saying is, just becuase you can buy one for $4000-8000 doesn't mean that's all the competitors will spend.  That 50-60 Horsepower in a 305 is HUGE (especially when 305's are only supposed to be getting around 450 horse.  Going to 510 is a HUGE advantage and it only takes one guy to spend the $$$$ to get it and all of a sudden everyone else is too.

Good drivers can generally trump the horsepower advantage (until everyone has the horsepower advantage instead of just 1 or 2 cars.  Then he needs it too.

Racing isn't cheap (even the supposedly "entry level" classes.  IMCA touting it as such is a fallacy.  The only way to really know is to find our what the teams are SPENDING. 

Crate Motors for Mods in IMCA are touted as cheaper too $5500, but the guys running up front with them are spending triple that amount...

So, I have to ask. How many 305 teams do you own? How many 305 Racesaver wins do you have?? You know these things for absolute certain, right?? We ARE talking the Racesaver IMCA class here, aren't we? Not some other series with different rules? I see it week in and week out, and deal with and speak to the teams weekly also. I haven't heard one complaint about "It's too expensive" or "So-and-so has a much better engine".

You said it yourself; "Good drivers can generally trump the horsepower advantage". And, this is highly evident in the Racesaver class, but even then the "little guy" still has his say in any race. Set-up and driver ability are key!! Plus for about $10000-12000 you can get started and have one helluva lot of fun.

I've seen the 360 class go from being economical when it first came to light at Midwest Speedway here in Lincoln, to having teams spend nearly as much as a 410 would cost them. The Racesaver class (as long as it is properly policed) is the best thing going to let the average Joe or Jolene who wants to race sprinters a chance to exactly that. And that self-same Joe or Jolene CAN win, even against those $25000 engines that someone wasted their money on.

Heck, there's an IMCA Sport Compact around here that cost $10,000 reportedly. And that's to win $60 a night at the races and a $1000 check from IMCA for capturing the points championship.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

DesMoines runs RaceSaver 305's.  (they are allowing Knoxville motors with restrictions, but in actuality get zero Knoxville cars). 

I don't own a car, but I know people that work in teh RaceSaver "approved" engine shops.  They KNOW what guys are spending and have told me (and others) that the open motors cost less than what the RaceSavers are costing that are going out the door...

305's (including RaceSavers) aren't being policed properly and the $$$$ is already being spent (just liek when 360's starting spending the $$$$).  In actuality, every other component on the car cost the EXACT SAME as a 360 or 410.  The motors costs what the guys who own them are WILLING TO SPEND.  If they are willing to spend $25,000, there will be a $25,000 engine for them to buy.  No rules or enforcement will stop that (because unless you control EVERY ASPECT (not just the heads and cam) of the engine, you can spend TONS of $$$ elsewhere (and guys are).

So basically the high prices are because guys are cheating and people are just turning a blind eye to it?  Why even have rules then if no one feels the need to check and enforce them.  The motors cost as much as a guy can get a way with.  So if there is a good tech program in place, that should discourage the spending if guys are getting caught with illegally modified engines.

I can tell you unequivocably that Eagle Raceway doesn't turn a blind eye to ANYTHING!! There have been 2 disqualifications at Eagle so far this year alone. The last one was for the intake valve lift being somewhere like 5/1000's too much!

The techs for the Racesaver IMCA Sprint Supernationals start teching each and every car at 8 a.m. on the first practice day and every day after that. If you do not pass tech, you do not race!!!!

So, if some where someone is not teching the engines properly, that's the track's problem. No series can do anything without being teched properly!! Look at some of the existing series; how many actually tech the winners correctly to ensure that nothing underhanded is happening??

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

I can tell you in the east no one is winning with a 6k motor. The guy who wins a lot has 22k in his motor & a full titanium light weight brand new car with new tires every race. When we ran last year we were very competitive with a 18k motor. It's not the hp alone it's being to run 30 to 40 point less gear. We had a motor I put together the year before for about 8k but it doesn't come off the corner like the more exp one does. Not even close!

I have been running the PA Sprint Series (the central PA 305 series) since 2008, the one thing that I can vouch for is the sustainability of the engines.  Up until late 2012 I ran an engine that the heads were the 15th set ever stamped by French, which would put them at manufactured about 1998. They are tired, don't get me wrong, but they still get the job done.

Yes we did build a new engine, and just like with any engine you need to focus more usable power and torque rather than high Horsepower. 

You can very easily get 2-3 seasons out of an engine with out even replacing the valve springs let alone a rebuild.  This is of course will standard maintenance.  The teching that we had is very consistent and enforeced properly.  While theres always things that could be better and could make more sense, the engine rules definitely great.

I know alot of people complain about the size of our purses, which are less than $300 to win and $120 to start.  However keeping it low discourages those from spending alot of money.  Also the ratio between 1st and 24th is close to 50% rather than the $3,000 to win $300 (10% of winning) to start that some 410 races are. 

   Racerx20. look up MSA sprint out of wisconsin, they are 360 engines. engine rules keep cost down! It does not help to spend extra money. you can only do so much to a engine. The engines make from 550 hp to 600 hp. I heard of one driver getting 71 nights out of a engine, 

                                    Lance fassbender who now runs IRA told me he got 64 night out of his 360. just changed cam and oil pump at 30 some races to be safe      jimD

If you didn't get 2 for $16,000,  you spent too much.

The Knoxville 305 class is NOT what the Racesaver series ever intended the 305 class to be. Don't waste your money building those 20,000 dollar motors . Look at the 305 nationals last year in Eagle. 8000 dollar motor came in second. Knoxville 305 cars usually only race at Knoxville. Get a racesaver motor and you can go alot more places. The 305  purpose is to allow more people to go race at a more affordable price and not spend the farm just to get started. Knoxville 305 class great to watch but way way more costly than the a helluva alot of the 305s around the country. Once Racesaver inspects your motor weighs the crank etc and it is teched and inspected then sealed , takes alot of the cheating away. For an area that wants to start up a 305 class, the Racesaver 305 rules are the best to start with and will allow alot of people to get back into racing. There will always be the nay sayers etc but for PROOF go look at the car count Roger has at Eagle Raceway- Great job Roger, Keep up the good work- Look at the Sprint Series of Texas that Smiley has going, etc. etc.