Forum: SCRAFAN.COM Forum (go)
Moderators: ljennings

Both tracks have listed these cars for upcoming shows. Are these the same 305-ci cars they tried running in the midwest for a while? Anyone know how many of them there are around the central SJV?

http://www.hoseheadforums.com/forum.cfm?ThreadId=83450

They are the same class as some tracks have in the midwest. Eagle Raceway in Nebraska runs this class. I know there has been alot of interest for this class in the Central Valley, but I think there are only a few cars race ready at this point. Scott W. (Kings Speedway) has a car and the Robertsons (BR Motorsports) have a car and there might be a couple others at this point. I have talked to a number of people and there are cars being built for this class and there are some that are taking the wait and see approach. If the interest translates into actual cars on the track then I think it would not be unreasonable to expect 15 to 20 cars a race next season.

oh boy lets water down open wheel racing a little more,hey I know lets start a class running 260ci fords with 2 barrel carbs and a Ford-o-matic trans.or maybe a nash rambler powerd class.

ROB

Rob: I do appreciate your concerns -- especially vis hurting car counts in the 360s -- but I also get that it costs about $60K to put a WC or WC360 car together vs. about $25K tops for a RaceSaver. If the net result is splitting the car counts, not so good, of course. But if RaceSaver makes it possible to bring a lot of potential "young guns" -- as well as others who've been running dirt mods* of one sort or another -- into the 360 & 410 OW ranks, is it all bad? 

I know this much, I'd rather listen to (as well as watch) a bunch of 305 sprints than a bunch of rice-rocket-engined buzz bombs. (Even though I appreciate what the buzz bombs are doing for promoters, owners and drivers as an "opening act" helping to make it possible to put on all OW shows the way Don does at Perris.) 

*I noticed, btw, that the IMCA dirt mod field at Tulare last Saturday was down to six cars from about 20 two years ago. 

2 Cars is what you can expect now... Hopefully, it catches on. Between the high dollar 600 sprints and micros and stuff out that way and these things, how can you realistically step 'up' to a 360 or 410 sprint without a lot of cash...

Hope it catches on like I say and provides a good entry sprint car class for the transition from Micros to Sprints.

Re: IMCA at Tulare / Kings. Numbers have been way down since they tried their own thing a few years back. Bakersfield packs their joint with mods... an hour / hour and a half away its a different story.

I just read the rules for Racesaver and I am trying to understand how this makes sense for all parties involved. It appears to me that this is, in effect, an open wheel “hobby stock”. You can buy a used hobby stock, race it all year and then sell it for what you paid for it. A Racesever car will cost about $25,000.00 to build new? Yes if you know how to put it together yourself. What if you have to pay someone to put it together? What will spares cost? Do you have a trailer? Will you have to pay someone to set it up and teach you how to adjust it? If you keep your eyes and ears open you can buy a used sprint car, with spares, tools, and a trailer for $15,000.00 to $25,000.00 from someone retiring, and get a mentor with the purchase. If you race for awhile and decide that sprint car racing is not for you, you can sell your stuff and get most, if not all of your money back. Why would you want to spend more money for an overweight, underpowered “race” car that no one wants to buy when you realize this was a mistake?

 This is obviously a class for amateur racers so why is there any purse at all? No other sport pays a purse for amateur competitors. If the racers don’t want to spend any money, why should the promoter. From a promoters stand point, this class will not draw any spectators other than the family and friends of competitors. Exactly what we have right now, so how does this class improve the sport? I think this class will probably put 8 to 10 cars on the track on any given night just like it does in the Midwest. Then it will be just one more “hobby” class to run a “main event” after midnight to empty stands.

 If a promoter loses money trying to support this, will the racers cover the loss?

 Finally, someone will say that the way to get more cars is to have a traveling series under his sanction. Just what we need. The single biggest barrier to getting new people started in sprint car racing is the cost of membership and licensing with the sanctioning body and travel for series races. If you want to put some spectators in the stands, expand and improve the sport, and provide a training ground for new racers, try this: Bring any sprint car as long as it is safe (no wings). You must run the Hoosier 16” wide medium tire (USAC spec) on the right rear. That is all the rules. Purse: start with $1000.00 to win, $200.00 to start. Race every Friday night. Open the gates at 5 PM, turn out the lights at 9PM. No series, no points, no championship, no touring, and sprint cars only! Give people a couple months notice so they can get their cars together and the promoter can get the word out, and I think you would have 20 to 30 cars for opening night. This will be a real challenge to develop, but I think the potential is far greater than the Racesaver idea. Racers, fans, promoters, what do you think? For my reasons for this, please see my blog at shorttrackautoracing.com.

 shorttrackautoracing.com

You don't understand this 305ci deal at all. This division is growing exponentially all over the country. These cars are a fraction of a 360-410 sprint car to build, race and maintain. They're most definitely not just like a hobby stock. Hell at some tracks they are only a second slower than the 360's. The racing is generally better in the 305 division. They make close to 500hp. The fact is a person can buy a used setup, freshen it up for under $15,000 if they shop around and are crafty at the wrenches. What needs to happen is the 305 class grows bigger and we ditch the 360's in my opinion. Having two divisions (360-410) so close in both speed and cost is absurd! This 305 deal will grow and it will eventually produce better car counts than all other sprint car divisions. Mark my words. The cost controls on the 305 are what make it highly attractive to weekend racers who have been swallowed up by rich folks who spend, spend, spend until there is nobody to race against in the other divisions. 

Cheers!

Here is an ad for a 305 engine shop and there parts kit for building your own 305. You cant build a 360 or 410 for this kind of money.

Cheers!

Description: 305 J&J sprint complete race ready. Complete car rebuilt for 2013 but only ran two times. Lots of new parts, brand new motor with best parts, new top and front wings way to much to list call for more info and pictures $12500 ready to race. I have every slip for the motor and will be glad to show you them. I have over $12,000 in motor you are buying the motor and getting the car for free.

Cheers!

Description: 2003 Big Max Left and Right Safety Cages 40-87 Raised Rail DMI Rear Neils Half Box Pro Shocks Complete Race Ready 305 Racesaver Sealed and Teched by CRSA Racesaver Heads 15 Races on Motor Complete operation (minus seat) and a ton of extra parts $16,000  Or will sell car separate $13,000 OBO

Cheers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ffsVPdeaLU

Cheers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BWXDnqDtao

Cheers!

I realize I am blowing this topic up but the misinformation needs to get sorted out. This is a good class for sprint car racing as a whole. A person can step up through the ranks more effectively by going the 305 route than any other way. They gain valuable seat time and car control before joining the upper ranks. 

Cheers!

Civil War Friday 38 cars. Civil war Sat. 48 cars. With car counts like this who cares. I just wish I lived in Elk Grove to be nearer those Civil War tracks, instead of in SoCAL, where we could only scrape up 21 cars last Sat.

"henry chinaski" (a pseudonym fer sure from the Charles Bukowski cult classic novel series beloved by the late Don Flanders) added a lot to the discussion here before a swarm of new posts relegated it to page two. I thot his contributions deserved to be seen, so...

Here is a good article about a promoter who has embraced the 305ci concept as a stepping stone for drivers to work their way up the ranks and build car counts:

http://www.onedirt.com/features/budget-sprint-car-racing-is-a-reality-with-305-sprints/

Cheers!

Thanks for responding to my post. I wish more people would join the conversation to give us their views. I will respond to each of your posts individually.

I spent yesterday rereading the RaceSaver website and watching videos of RaceSaver races and 410 races. I found that RaceSaver defines their program as “recreational racing” and that their focus is on “cheap, fun, racing". I watched several of their championship races and found that they had 3 cars driven by retired race drivers who were lapping what appeared to be a ¼ mile track in 15 to 16 seconds, and 22 drivers who they caught in 3 laps so most of the field was turning about 22 second laps. They had a yellow flag about every 3 laps and 15 of the 25 cars finished the 25 lap race. I paused the video and counted 21 people in the stands. The fact that this class is doing well in some parts of the country is great for the sport but doesn’t mean it will be successful in California for a number of reasons (see my blog). I also found that there are 5 or 6 other 305 class series now, all with different rules, so how is that different from the chaos we have here?

It seems to me that most people think the fix for sprint car racing is cut costs to increase car counts. All we need is more cars and the fans will line up to buy tickets. That is totally wrong. Over the last 50 plus years, I have been involved with drag racing, off road racing, motocross, short track stock cars and sprint cars. All of these types of racing have had good years and bad years and all have had multiple near death experiences. There are only 2 things that have not changed over that 50 years and all forms of racing. One is the constant, non-stop, never ending whining of racers about how much it costs to race! And then they keep on racing anyway. The second is the fans want to see good racing. Good racing means the best drivers in the fastest cars with lots of wheel to wheel racing and lots of passing. The fans could not care less how much it costs to race. They pay to see a show and it better be good or they won’t be back. It doesn’t matter if it’s movies or racing or concerts or whatever, fans are more concerned with feeling they got their “moneys worth” than they are with how many dollars the ticket cost. If you reduce the quality of the show a little you will reduce the size of the crowd a lot. That is where we are today. Lots of classes with 5 to 12 cars in each class, races ending after midnight with empty stands. Some tracks using this model get over 100 cars each event and are profitable.  I am fine with that. I am thrilled that there are a lot of hobby racers because I love racing and hopefully some of these people will go on to race at a professional level. HOWEVER, what I don’t like is these shows being offered as representative of what sprint car racing is. You get 1 chance to make a good 1^st impression. We have blown that opportunity time after time after time for years. We have to put on a professional show to put NEW fans in the stands and get them to come back for more. Restricted classes are not a professional show. We have allowed this argument about cutting costs, which is a hobby racer issue more than a pro racer issue, to draw us away from the issues that have to be addressed for pro racing. We have seen that simply putting a lot of cars on the track does not make a show. On the other hand, putting 32 good sprint cars on the track as a stand alone show worked very well at Ventura. Let’s learn from this. Just like any major sport, amateurs need the pros as a goal, and pros need the amateurs to feed the system. The next thing we have to do is rebuild weekly, local racing to get fans back in the habit of going to the races every week. I better not start down that road. There isn’t room here. Just read the blog and I promise to add a lot to what is already there as quick as I can get a better handle on Wordpress software.

 shorttrackautoracing.com

So you watched a few random videos of what sounds like shitty races and you've determined that from your indepth analysis the 305ci sprint cars are a bad idea. Wow! Can you tell me the winning lottery numbers for next weeks draw? (just kidding) Look, I get it you dont like the idea of a lower horsepower affordable sprint car class. The fact is this class IS GROWING all over the country. Why? Because its so much cheaper to build and maintain these cars. That's an absolute FACT. The tires last many races if the track prep is decent and the cycle time between freshening on a motor is exponentially longer than any other sprint car class.

You said that in 50 years of you being around racing you've heard "...constant, non-stop, never ending whining of racers about how much it costs to race!". Now this is a real head scratcher. If thats the #1 thing you've heard from racers wouldnt a lower cost solution be a really GOOD idea?? If the racers have been saying costs are out of control and thats led them to not race then lets try and embrace a concept that ALLOWS them to race again instead of sit in the stands stuffing their face with corndogs and beers.

In my opinion the 360 division should have never been created. There needed to be a division like 305's that were the logical start point for blue collar workers who want to race and a place for rookies to learn the sport. Instead we have outrageously priced 360's needing regular freshening on the motors due to the higher and higher RPM demands. The 360's are a close price point to 410's. That is not what will draw blue collar racers. A guy can work a good middle class job and afford to race a 305 while not completely bankrupting his family finances. Racers are addicts to the sport so yes they will often times race beyond their means especially so if there isn't a more affordable division of sprint cars to race. 

I LOVE 410 racing but the fact is the sport is actually dying a slow death and I strongly attribute that to the loss of affordable weekly racing at local tracks and the 360 class. I also attribute it to the lack of a true honest low cost entry division to build skill before making the plunge into the expensive ranks of sprint car racing. I've seen many racers come into 410's or 360's who had no place on the racetrack due to their lack of car control. They end up wading up their car and those around them on the regular. So now that they've wasted so much money down the drain they're out of cash and done racing in a flash. Had they been afforded a path that started with an entry level division they would've been able to stick around longer, gain the needed experience and moved up the ranks the proper way if they could afford to. 

I'd rather show up to a race that has 40+ 305ci sprint cars than a race with 15-20 360's/410's. I enjoy the competitive nature of racing and that is epitomized through wide ranging competition. The 305's are not boring, trust me I have actually watched them in person and they're not what a fan would call "slow". I detest the sound and racing quality of California Lightning Sprints. I know there are those that enjoy them, I am not one of those people. I feel they cost enough money that you could be better off racing a 305 and actually gaining full size car experience. When your skill and funds are up to it the transition from a 305 to a 410 is possible with the same exact car. You dont have to sell at a loss and start over buying entirely new stuff. 

I applaud Kings Speedway for sticking their neck out and embracing this lower cost option for sprint car racers. I stand by what I said in a previous post, this division will grow and that is good for the sport. 305's will not take over 410 racing but in fact they will help it.

Cheers!

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

Thanks for responding. It looks like we agree on most items. Let me clarify a few things.

The 1^st videos I watched were on the RaceSaver website. I then went to Youtube and watched the full length versions of the same videos. I also watched some other 305 race videos. The fact that the class is growing in some areas indicates the sport is growing which is good news.

 I didn’t say that whining was the number one thing I heard. What I said was that it is one of only two things that haven’t changed in fifty years. It is just the nature of the beast. The level of the debate is proportional to the passion of the racers. Racing is a product that we sell to people in the stands. Cost cutting, while important, needs to be done with care, not a chainsaw. Like any product, if cost cutting reduces the quality of the product then the customers stop buying it. There is more to this than simply making it possible for everybody to race sprint cars. Promoters make huge capital investments in tracks and take huge financial risks to promote races. They have to buy groceries too. If you want to have 305 races, understand that they have to be good enough to sell enough tickets to make sense for the promoter. If not there won’t be racing for anybody.

 I agree that the 360 program never should have been started. Back in the 90’s it was hyped as “the next big thing” using the exact same arguments that are used today for the 305’s. Stock iron heads, stock iron blocks, stock cranks and rods, no dry sumps, etc. etc. And the purse? $800.00 to win, $500.00 for second, and $300.00 for third. That was it. The low cost to build and race a car wasn’t that low but the people pushing the program thought they had an easy sell to the promoters because of the small purse and an on going paycheck for themselves through memberships, license fees, sanction fees etc. So now all the original reasons for doing a 360 class are gone, we have about 6, maybe more, 360 touring series in California and none of them have enough cars to put on a complete show. So after 20 years of 360 racing all that has been done is heavy damage to the sport. I am not accusing French Grimes of creating this program for his own financial gain. I have a great deal of respect for him, he has been in sprint car racing forever and I doubt there is a question about racing that he could not give you a good and honest answer to. But there are now other organizations selling a 305 series and I can’t see a different outcome.

 I love sprint car racing too. You are dead right that the source of our problems is the demise of local, weekly racing. The way to keep the costs down is not restrictive rules. No matter how you make the rules you will have a bunch of cars that don’t fit them so those cars will stay home. I believe that the only rule necessary is a spec right rear tire. If you know the weight of a car and the maximum g force it can produce you can calculate the horsepower the car is actually putting to the ground. I think the spec tire implemented this year is good for about 650 hp. This makes a 650hp 360 competitive with a 900hp 410 that can only put 650hp on the track. With this rule you don’t need a team of engineers with thousands of dollars of tools spending hours before and after the races to inspect and in some cases tear down race motors in a dusty pit. We race sprint cars not rule books!

 I also applaud Kings for being willing to take a chance on something that might help the sport. Just don’t try to convince people that all sprint cars are the same because that will hurt the crowd when the big dogs come to race. I have spent a few really nice Saturday nights at Kings (and a couple that were about 130 degrees). It’s a good track run by good people. I hope this works.

 shorttrackautoracing.com