Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Oooh, we could go places with this one.... for example: "(pick driver) is pretty good at both"......

Don't want to change the topic too much, where did the wheel go? What caused it to leave the car, broken hub? Wheel studs? Hope was hurt.

Geez, I had fun.

*Hope nobody was hurt.

Geez, I had fun.

Wheel went off the tack in turn 3.  Nothing by trees out there.  Word I got is that it may not have been completely tightened--Darland was involved in a heat race accident and the crew changed the front axle before the B.  

more wingless in central pa!!!!!!!!  now!!!!! 

I like both styles of racing but I know going into a non winged show I'm going to see a good race. When I go to a winged show I just hope it doesnt take rubber and become a complete boring waste of time. Nothing worse than a winged show that becomes follow the leader on a rubber down race track. I have seen it happen far too many times. In fact it's happened enough that when you combine the consistantly lousy heat race action with the very real chance of a shitty main event, the value isn't there most the time for a WoO show.

Cheers!

The way I see it, most of what is being discussed here is the effect – not the cause.

If a racetrack is banked properly, then there is typically passing available whether the track is fast – or slick.

Thus, whether it’s passing points or time trials format will work just fine; and whatever flavor-of-the-night sprint car division is running will most likely have a good race.

If a track has to be in a narrow band of a specific condition to be conducive to good racing, then it’s probably banked incorrectly to begin with…regardless if it’s a 1/5 mile or a 1/2 mile.

After going to a lot of asphalt events over the years, there are clear winners - and losers - in this category, and it makes this point really clear.

Good luck to everyone as the 2014 racing season continues! 

2hnker - +1!!

dmantx - You are right about the banking - if done properly, there is usually more than one line.  Not always, but frequently. 

At my home track, Eagle Raceway, there is almost always great sprint car racing.  Sometimes there is a bump going into 1; sometimes the bottom is the fastest way around due to a rubber down situation.  And yes, sometimes the pole sitter wins the race.  But there is always racing in the pack and due to the 1/3 mile length, the leaders are in traffic quickly which creates some fantastic racing as the leaders move through the field.

Until the rule makers take some tire and downforce away, changing the format might help but it won't be enough to dramatically increase the quality of the racing.

Non-winged shows have better heats by a wide margin, this is the point in time in the event where the crowd starts to wonder why they even go to a winged event.

But by feature time, on average, I haven't seen a big difference in the quality of the A Main. I've been to most of the Indiana tracks, seen them on the Eastern Storm, and a few other tracks, and the non-winged A Mains are just as likely to be freight trains (just a lot slower) as the winged guys.  

As for the Outlaws this season, they've had a bunch of good A Mains. The last 3 (I was at New Egypt, watched the CLT race on YouTube and am going off IndianaOpenWheel.com, hardly apologists for winged sprint car racing, for the review of last night's event) have been excellent, the racing in Vegas and Volusia was awesome and some of the Cali shows looked good as well. There are always snoozers, but all in all, I don't think there is a big need for format changing.

I like non-winged but the worst sprint feature I've ever seen in my life was the USAC show at Big Diamond 2 years ago. I actually didn't "see" it beacsue nobody could see through the dust even the driver that won, hence little if any passing.

A

I haven't actually been to the chilli bowl (just watched PPV for the whole week), but the best format for racing I HAVE EVER SEEN is the Trophy Cup.  

Been to Nationals, USAC sprint week, turkey night, Oval Nationals, CRA midwest tours, Kings Royal etc, but nothing holds a candle to the trophy cup, it forces guys to race hard everytime they hit the track.  First started going about 7 years, haven't missed a race since.  Every year, the race surprises with last lap excitment, lead changes, and drama

Chilli Bowl is great, but how much better would the main be, if they inveted the whole field?

WIth the format Johnny suggested, it would be a hard sell for me.  I would like to see the format first hand, but my initial reaction is I would never willing go to sprint car race where there is no inversion.  Been to a couple Hell TOur stock races, and to put it mildly, they sucked with little passing with a very similiar format Than again, I grew up watching CRA having 8 car inverts for both heats and mains.  Recently USAC CRA changed to 6 car inverts, and its just not as good as show, and consequently I go less.

I think anyonw who has witnessed first hand the trophy cup, will likely rate it the best format in racing

Just my $.02

Darin, I'd be curious how you see Devils Bowl here?    When it's fast the heats are boring as hell.    The only passing you'll see is on a start or restart, and only in one and two.    Generally the finishing order on the first lap will be the same as the last lap unless somebody drops out.   The Bowl seems to have plenty of bank to me.   You've seen far more tracks than I have, so you probably have more insight into this with regard to track configuration.  

+1   I went to both of the WoO shows at Devils Bowl in April.  I did this largely out of nostalgia.    I'll go to Knoxville too, but that was the last time I'll see Kinser run at Devils Bowl.   While I enjoyed the weekend, it was a reminder of a couple of things.   First was that Swindell and Kinser are at the end of their careers and are now also rans.   The second reminder was why I quit going to WoO shows long before they stopped coming to the Bowl in 2001.    I quit going out there years before because of the high prices, low car counts, freight train heats, and overall lack of competition.     Next year I will probably only attend the second night of the WoO show, and if the car count drops significantly from what they had this year it'll likely be my last.  

The racing was better several years ago with the dished wings and the wider right rears.For those that keep crying for narrower tires,the WoO narrowed the right rears by 2 inches last year and it didn't make the racing a bit better.

Dryslick-

Here's a direct example of what I meant by saying 'proper banking'...which is not the same thing as 'plenty of banking’.

Cowtown Speedway. The configuration of the track was a bit narrow with steep banking that ended at the top with no banking in the corners (like a runoff area) of about 10 feet. There was also a 'runoff' area of about 10-12' on the backstretch.

Although exciting racing was the norm there, the tight passing conditions led to a lot of crashes, and not always a lot of passing.

At the time, I was handling the event packaging and marketing for the track and so I started talking with Bo Rawdon about reconfiguring the track, by moving the inside of the front straight back 10' or so, then doing the same with the outside of the backstretch; which effectively took a big chunk of the 'paper clip' out of the configuration...while at the same time, making the bank in the turns more progressive instead of such a sharp climb.

The total bank from bottom to top was not any different in overall height after the reconfiguration, just the way it was distributed.

End results: Far less crashing and much more passing. Drivers were also able to keep their car fielded, as they didn’t wear out their racing budget so quickly.

The first night of sprint car racing there after the reconfiguration, a driver that started in the 8th row won the feature.

It would take over 1 year for a front row sprint feature driver to win from the front row at Cowtown...and on that particular night, it was our big 2-day fall race, which utilized passing points, and Tim Crawley started 11th in his heat, and passed every single car, and then the leader to take the win coming down for the checkers.

We did not invert sprint cars in the feature in this case, as we didn't believe in penalizing drivers that qualified better than others. That's the whole point of having a qualifying procedure at a big race. So Crawley did start on the pole, which he deserved to do, and would end up winning that qualifying night feature race, thus breaking the 1+ year 'no front row starter' winner. But the fastest car did win.

Another interesting tidbit from that event, as we had 71 sprints in the pits, was when TBJ came up to do the pill draw, he was all excited about drawing a low number and I told him, that wasn't necessarily a great thing, as since the reconfiguration there was all kinds of passing in the heats.

He'd start front row outside in his heat, which he went on to win...but then when he came up to the lineup board for the feature, he thought for sure we had passing points wrong because he was slated either in the 6th or 7th row of the feature. So I shown him all the cars that had more passing points and he was blown away.

And for the drivers that quibble over drawing in on the pole in a passing points event, then winning their heat, and not having enough points to start up front in the feature; here's how I look at that: by starting on the front row of your heat (if you're a top running driver), you reduce the chance of getting crashed by about 75% and effectively are given a 'free pass' to the feature race because you're probably going to win your heat race.

Although it may not be perfect, passing points work on a track configuration that is conducive to passing. But if you have a track, for example, that typically doesn't have much passing in the heats, then yes, it is an issue...but then I revert back to my original first line in my initial post – which is, why fault the system when track configuration is actually the problem.

One final example is the original LoneStar Speedway vs. the reconfigured LoneStar Speedway.

The longer, paper clip version afforded very little passing…in any division. The new configuration has several times more passing throughout the night, whether it’s fast or slick. All 6 nights of the LoneStar Sprint Nationals and all 3 nights of the Armadillo Nationals had tons of passing…and the fastest cars ended up all at the front in each case, in each division…all using a passing points system with no feature invert. But again, you could pass in the heats, so it worked. The very first time the ASCS cars were there after the reconfiguration Gary Wright started 8^th and won in a feature that would only have one caution flag…and he drove by every car.

One final ‘but.’ I don’t have any issue with a time trials format either, as long as they don’t start so early it wears out the track, effectively killing it for the rest of the night. ‘Start times’ should have the flexibility of being adjusted based on weather conditions to ensure optimal track conditions throughout the event.

See you at the races!

To illustrate this point, lets go to video. These video clips were taken on the same night last fall during the Armadillo Nationals at LoneStar.

In the first video clip, the track was clearly heavy...yet the driver at the beginning of the video in 3rd place (who had never been to LoneStar before), was able to pass his way to the front, along with other drivers:

http://youtu.be/GaWIepEhh48

 Then, in that same night's feature race, the track had clearly slicked off - yet afforded 2, 3 and even 4 lanes of passing grooves:

http://youtu.be/_4lt757VtEg

5 lanes if you count the wall. LOL

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

I see your point Dman, especially using Cowtown as an example.   I haven't talked to anyone who didn't like Cowtown better after the reshaping.    Getting back to Devils Bowl, what do think can be done with that one?   

Nothing needs to be done with Devils Bowl....I moved 25 minutes from the track 2 1/2 years ago and have seen some of the best races that I've seen in the past 6 or 7 years. Sure, the WoO race wasn't as good as some, but it was better than most....most notably...The Salina Highbanks WoO race....

Member of this message board since 1997

Ok I have an idea I've been working on a want opinions on how to fix or if it's ok.Goal is to improve heat racing and give encouragment to perform better in heat to start closer to front in the main but not for sure right up front to "walk away" As for the "crowd can't follow". I don't buy it...make the system somewhat understandable and give away scoring sheets and cheap pencils with each program and fans can keep track and gives them something to do why the "jock support" classes run.

32 car count example

No Time Trials

No Dash

4- 8 car heat groups

Each group would run 2 heats. One right after other. Total inversion in your 2nd heat from start of 1st  Heat. Passing Points awarded. Since both your heats are ran back to back track shouldn't change huge thus less room for " track changed" or "what starting spot I got" arguments.

Top 6 in passing points redraw for positions 1-6 for feature- Involve crowd in draw process

Rest of field is lined up according to Heat Passing Points

B Main is Lined up according to total redraw- you had chances in heat to qualify and this would keep B main passing interesting. Top 4 tag back of field.

Features Need to be longer to allow more passing or setups to take effect-All Features 50 Laps w/ a 25 lap open yellow caution. Provide "Lucky Dog" at 1/2 way point to lead car that's a lap down.

I realize teams might not like the longer races and "double heats" but we're removing time trials and the dash. If it would help you could lessen heats by 2 laps a piece.