Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

There is never going to be a format that pleases everyone, but why not put a nightly points system in place to set the starting lineup?  Awards points for time trials, invert 6 in the heat races and give points based on finishing position, top 8 in points after the heat races go to a dash, which is fully inverted.  Highest point man at the end of the dash starts on the pole, 2nd highest startest 2nd, etc.  This makes passing a priority.  Almost like a mini Nationals format.

I've been saying this same thing for years. Cut down on the size of the wing and reduce rear tire widths and the racing will improve. Make the drivers the most important part of the performance and the cream will rise to the top.

Every driver biotches about the format at Knoxville Nationals, yet when you look at the results, the best drivers almost always are on the podium.

No need to change what's not broken.

After thinking about it more, I'd give passing points for the heat races and the dash as opposed to points based on finishing position. 

No need to jack with the wings anymore or tire widths.Put them on hard rear tires and the racing will greatly improve and engine costs will decrease as well.Don't know why the WoO will try everthing but the most obvious and simplest.

thinking ..... right answer above

format (which I usually bitch about is pretty good ... rewards both timers and heat winners) ...................... one day show .......................... must be timed or no traveling circus

passing points, etc. doesn't work for a one day show

dttfowtm ...  
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It's not difficult to figure out.  There is only one tire manufacturer for the series for a reason....the WoO is in bed with the tire companies.  If they mandate a harder tire, that tire is going to last longer than the tires that they run now.  Tires that last longer means that the tire companies don't sell as many tires.  If they aren't selling as many tires then there isn't the need to keep putting up proposals to be the only tire manufacturer for the series, which means the WoO doesn't bring in as much money. 

Realistically, this series is probably having one of it's better years in a long time.  Granted Pittman has won 4 in a row without much passing, but it isn't Schatz.  So you don't hear a ton of people complaining.  Now they have a storyline - Can Pittman make it 5 in a row? or Who can knock off Pittman's run of dominance?  Salanda is fast, Madsen and McMahan are fast.  Steve is struggling but still puts asses in the seats.  They have a budding star in Gravel.  I can't imagine they are worried about changing much of anything at this point in time.

So the format stinks because Pittman has won 4 in a row? He put himself in position to win every night and earned that front row starting position. Maybe the  Posse guys and other Woo drivers need to step up their program to beat him.  The Grove is notorious for minimal passing in the heats and Orange County is a  dump!   If you ever have a chance to go to River Cities Speedway in Grand Forks,  ND you should. You wont complain about the format, just the fact that it's in North Dakota. 

Taking some of the "Locked down" out of the cars would help tremendously... until then a slightly modified version of the old USAC format would be great.... heats totally inverted, or at least a 6-8 car invert, off of time trials..and don't be afraid to start more than 8 cars in a heat.. transfer the top 4 if you have 4 heats, top 5 if you have 3 heats...Run no less than 10 laps in a heat...even 12 or more if there are 12 or more cars in the heat.

Run a dash for the 4 fastest qualifiers and the 4 heat winners for points and money only, no impact on main lineup.

Line up the B main heads up off timetrials... transfer the top 6.

Line up the main heads up based on qualifying time with everybody who has transfered thru the heats or the B...everybody gets their time back.....maybe invert the top 6 cars that are in the show...

Fill in the last 2-3 spots of the 24 car field with the 2-3 fastest qualifiers who did not transfer thru a heat or a B...then start the provisionals behind them.

Now you have a format where the guys chasing points have to be on the button all night long... they want to qualify good enough to start up front in the main and they want to transfer out of the heat to eliminate some risk in the B. The locals who have a shot at winning also have to get after it and can't stroke thier way into a good starting spot. The locals whos goal is to just make the show may sandbag in qualifying to get to start on the front of a heat, but will be buried in 22nd place when the main comes around.

USAC always put on great shows on dirt with this format (they only started 22 cars in the mains)...the difference is that USAC always had enough cars in the pits to make this work, and they would actually only bring 32-36 cars into the format...anybody who qualified out of the top 30 had to immediately run a C and only a few cars out of it got to move forward...everyone else loaded up and went home....and the cars weren't locked down like slotcars which allowed a guy to make a serious run from 8th to the top 3 in a heat pretty regularly.

Loose is when you hit the wall with the rear of the
car, tight is when you hit the wall with the front of
the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and
torque is how far you move the wall.

I don't really disagree with you dirtlover, I think that freeing the cars up some and making the driver drive more than locked down wide open is probably a solution. My thought though is that we probably won't see this because so to say "the genies out of the bottle" By that I mean that I don't know that WRG would do something that would actually bring lap times and speeds backward. I'm not saying its right or worng but I would be surprised if they would enact new rules that would make the cars take a step backward. Time will tell I guess, I think a major part of the problem and this goes across the board is that these cars are all so similar, it doesn't appear anyone has a clear advantage over anyone else even locals in alot of cases.  I guess we have to decide if we like to see alot of different winners but often from the front row or would we rather go back 20 years to a time when Kinser won everything and once in awhile someone else got a win. If this board would have been around back then there would have been plenty of complaining about that as well.

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At the WoO level all the teams are going to put new tires on just as often,it's not about that,it's about loosening the cars up using hard tires.That puts more emphasis on driver skill and also makes h.p less important.

Isnt he the defending WoO Champion?

Did you ever think why no one has passed him? Could it be because he is faster?

And while you are at it, knock 6 inches off the height of the wing sideboards to get rid of some of the rudder affect.

I think dirtlover has some solid ideas.  The fact that we talk about 'clean air/dirty air' makes me think we are watching racing with fenders.  Take away some of the aero (or a bunch of aero) and traction and put the race back in the drivers' hands.  This isn't just a sprint car problem - the late models have this problem also especially with the more radical front-end treatments and the current generation of chassis.

What is better racing?  Do you equate that with passing?  Passing only occurs when there are differences in cars.  Thus the better drivers and those racers that are dialed in on a given night will move forward.

do heat in the motors...then clean the cars for VL photos...cut costs by doing a pill draw for finishing position...and move straight to VL interview, autographs, tshirt sales while streaming videos to the crowds phones of races in the past.

everyone gets home a little eralier and weather / track conditions are never a factor.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

OK, just being creative (and possibly a bit humorous) here.

At signin, draw a pill for heat lineup position.  At the same time draw a sealed envelope with a number inside.

Once heats and B are run to determine the starting field, open the envelopes to reveal feature starting positions.

Husets tried running a hard tire couple years ago, it laid rubber nearly every night, hard tire = tire spin, didn't save the racers any money as was the plan, they still had bald tires every night. As said previously best answer to better racing is shrink the wings and tire widths, but that is going to cost teams tons of money buying all new wings, and stuck trying to get rid of all their current top wings, and bunch of wheels that will now be obsolete. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Award points for everything - time trials (24 points for quicktime and go down by 1 per position down to 24th position) 20 points for heat race win and down 2 per finishing position and give them an extra point for each car passed - eliminate the DASH - invert 6 in the heats and only take 5 (4 heat format) or invert 8 and take 6 (3 heat format) - must finish top 4 (4 heat format) or top 5 (3 heat format) to get your time-spot for the invert.

Still award the same points as current for the feature bud add points for each car passed in the feature (so a guy starting 20th that gets up to 6th gets some extra points for actually RACING.

Will there still be cars that try to "sandbag" to hit the 8 invert in the feature?  Yep, but trying to be in that top 8 will be a lot harder than trying to be in teh top 12-16 currently.

Cars running for the Championship HAVE to race hard if they get points for everything.

Eliminate Double-File restarts alltogether (they are exciting for a lap or two, but they hurt the overall race because it takes longer for the leaders to catch traffic)

Any format would be fine if the equipment racing was truly special.  No change of qualifying is going to make up for identicle cookie cutter race cars that act as if they are on rails if the track is prepared properly. 

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

Not sure why you're replying to me - that was my point!

Driver introductions Knoxville style, followed by the green flag with drivers running to their cars oldschool-Lemans. Add starters, or do whatever one or two midgets at the Little 500 do with low compression so they don't need a push truck. 30 laps, then to the pits to take off the wings and run 20 more. Make everyone happy until no one knows what's going on.