Forum: SCRAFAN.COM Forum (go)
Moderators: ljennings

Enjoyed the Ovals, all except the features, BORING. After Trophy Cup, everything else is BORING. Sure, put the fast cars up front so the fans tend to watch the front runners, while the rest of the field is ignored. Seems sanctions and promoters don't get it that the Trophy Cup format is a sea change in racing. Most beefs about the Outlaws is they put the fastest up front resulting in nose to tail racing, same deal in most sanctions. Full inversion based on points ensures great fan friendly racing. The payout based on points prevents sandbagging because more points means more cash.

Trophy cup is a blast from the past. 

See this race is formated the way racing use to be.

It was always fastest start in the back of every race.

With fastest up front you stop sand bagging , but you gain boredom .

Low money guys can't play that game , so in return you get less cars.

2 cents...

Last time I checked the racers not the promoters are the ones who don't want inverts. They say imverts lead to wrecks which TC has proven true. Wrecks lead to happy fans as proven on this and many other threads about tc. They are exciting I agree. In times past full inverts lead to great driving it also taught new drivers that qualified up front to get their shit together faster by giving them the up front starting spots. Now days drivers have been taught disrespect for each other especially in late laps as proven at this years tc. My.02

My 2 cents woeth of opinion is, keep it like it is. Yes the low buck guys have a hard time with the big money sponsored teams but i think last night was great. Also i cannot remember ever seeing a 360 win a qualifying heat race and start the main in the oval nationals. It was a very good race and all the sponsors of the oval nationals, should have a big thanks especially in this depressed economy, especially All Coast Construction. Just an opinion i live non wing sprint car racing.

Three drivers pulled out of their cars, stapped onto boards, and hauled off in ambulances during the non-wing TC. Drivers in peril and about 90 minutes spent waiting for the fence to be re-welded. Major stimulation. Just sayin'.

Raj, that's a little unfair as two of those trips came in hot laps and qualifing. The 3rd was in the opening laps of the 1st "A" main and had more to do with the drivers aggresive style than anything else, IMO.

First, Hats off to the PAS & Don K. for putting on a great event.  The pre race festivites remembering Ray were awesome and very touching.  It was pretty obvious how much Ray meant to PAS, racers and his family .  And there could not have been a better Grand Marshall either, with Shawn M.  In addition, PAS tried (almost everything) to put on a great race with changing the format, better schedule when they ran cars, trying to make the track better   But yes the racing was boring (especially after trophy cup), but maybe we should not compare it to it.

Here's a few simple ideas.  INVERT 8 cars on Friday and Saturday night in the heat races.  Just like in WOO, if you invert 6 or 4 cars, the heats in most cases lack passing because as we all should know by now, fast cars passing other fast cars on a tight race track is nearly impossible.  Case in point, even in the main event when Bryan was clearly faster than Dave, he could not get it done.

Points, DO NOT LOCK ANYONE INTO THE MAIN after Friday.  Instead carry over the points from Friday.  Requalify everyone, run heat races (fully inverted), and than count the points.   The first 20 go straight to the main, invert 6 or 8 for main or a random draw where to start.  

Do not run two B mains, it dilutes the competition.  Run a C, transfer 4 cars to the B, etc and transfer 4 to the main with a 20 lap B main.

Raj saying the format crashed too many cars at Tulare non wing portion,   I DISAGREE 100%   THE TACKY TRACK CAUSED THE FLIPS, One or 2 drivers from the hot laps went to the hospital from crashes, Bernal from qualifying, and what Andy Forsberg said, the idot from Swenden should go back go home for the way he drives, I think he was referring to to the Fin, marcus niemala.  No offense Marculus, you do seem to be in a few wrecks,, and I know you are from Finland.  Also didn't Mitchell flip while in the lead not sure you could  blame that on the format     The wrecks were caused by the tacky track, stupid over aggressive driving, but not the format.  the down time was caused by the horrible fence which  almost always needs to be welded after a car contacts the fence.  Again, the format was not main reason for the crashes.  The PAS also had some really bad crashes, Rips and his sons crash comes to mind, and also the one with Cory (he did not crash) in the semi.

With all that said, I saw a replay of Thursdays 360 race, and wow that looked like a great race with several lead changes and passing.  I heard some fans say, oh the track was bad, slick and dusty.   But from what I saw on tape, the racing was good if not spectacular.   I would take a racy dusty track, over a one groove tacky track any day     The tacky track prep for the mains on Friday and Saturday did not work for me at ALL.  

Do I expect USAC to allow a format change, NO.  Would Don K. and PAS consider this, hell yeah.  They have always tinkered with the OVAL Nationals to make it better for the fans and racers.  

Next year, I doubt I will attend the oval nationals, or even many CRA races until they go back to inverted heat races.  or if they have small car counts, two sets of racing heat races, 3 meaningless heat races and main do not cut it for me.   Also Tulare is much friendlier than the PAS.   Could not believe it, I bought a very large bag of Kettle Corn on Friday night, and when I returned Saturday with it, the front security staff would not let me bring it in   .  15 minutes latter after waiting in the ticket booth, talked to a manger, they relented and let me bring in my track bought food.  REALLY, that is how you treat your customers who buy your overpriced track food.  It's the culture at the track.  I never feel welcomed by the employees at the PAS (or even Ventura) but other tracks ie New Kern Raceway, Santa Maria, Oildale, Hanford, and especially Tulare go out of there way to welcome you the second you step foot in the facilty. 

Turkey Night  wow $40 tickets for 3 races, two B mains/qualifiers and 100 laps main.  The racing was good last year, but at the end, seemed like everyone but Larson was popping tires.  The format, DULL again.  Fast guys line up in the semi at front, and they invert 6 for the main.  I know everyone bagged on Irwindale, but they had a more diverse range of cars/drivers with sprint cars, and ford focus for a much cheaper ticket than $40 for just 3 races.  And contrary to many views on here, the racing sometimes was even good or exciting at Irwindale in both the sprints and Midget cars.  I've been to a few parades for the midgets when they run the 1/2 mile dirt tracks.  The engine program seems to be the deciding factor who runs upfront or who doesn't pop's a tire.

If PAS is going to charge $40 for 3 midget races, why not invite the 360's back to run as a support class.  IF the pas can run 3/4 classes of cars at the Ovals for a $60 ticket (price of 3 day ga) surely they can run 2 classes at Turkey Night for $40 ticket.  Unfortunately, I think promoters (not PAS or Don K. but the real promoters).  are responsible for the ticket prices and also guessing they do not want to spend any extra money on purses.  Many of the teams/drivers have both cars, so you could expect a good car count (ie back gate).  Even at this late stage, they could pull it off.

I do appreciate all the work Don K and the PAS family put into dirt racing for So CAl.  They work as hard as anyone to make their events great.  Hopefully they will take into account some of the criticism leveled about race format and track prep, and make the oval nationals a better event next year.  (However if the PAS, CRA and USAC continue to have just 6 and 4 car inverts, 6 car inverts for the mains, I will probably spend my money at other venues     Shame, CRA was once known for how great their racing was, 2nd to none in the country.  It's not that way anymore especially since USAC has taken over.  The fans I was sitting with/around me, all seemed to have a great time and enjoyed the races.  Not every race is gonna be a barn burner (except the Trophy CUp, somehow it is every year), but I am sure the Oval Nationals can regain their excitement and stature with a few changes.   (at the same time, if the pas does not make changes, for the ovals, monthly racing (CRA) 6 car inverts for  heat?mains, Turkey night format, PAS will not earn my business.  Too many other tracks go out of their way to earn it.  This year I only attended two race weekends at the PAS, good chance it will be less next year.   

I agree JD about Tulare for the non wing guys. That was just one of those random nights where everything that can, goes wrong... all we needed was another duststorm to blow in about halfway through that deal.

I also agree about the Turkey night format.

Third only to SuperSaloon's and SuperStock's back home, Midgets are my favorite form of racing. It kills me that we have such a deep talented field and we don't get heat races. The show takes seven hours, and the racing seems to fill less than a third of that time. Selfishly, I would like more.

For the drivers and car owners, anyone who qualifies poorly wants heat races, anyone who is straight to the main loves the format...

I remain happy enough that it is on dirt this year and I will attend with a smile on my face.

JD, Thrusday's race was the best racing of the whole Oval Nats. two equal grooves with a lot of passing, unlike Friday's race which was follow the leader on the top,which happened because of the windy conditions and no one can prevent that. Saturday the track was to good and resulted in a follow the leader race on the bottom. I agree with what you said in your post about the track and the way they treat people,if they lowered their prices on things more people would buy food at the track and not try to bring in their own stuff,but that makes to much sense.

CRA9, do drivers/mechanics  for non-wing prefer the real heavy tacky tracks or a more dry track.  Would it have been better off if the pas did not redue the track after Friday's B main and just ran on it as is, maybe spritz of water up top for dust?

When I hear the words too good, to me that means not good for racing.  Before I ventured out to other tracks around the country, I thought only a tacky track was good.  WHat I found was a dry slick track offered some of the best (albeit slower)  racing (wing/non wing).   One of the best races I ever saw was at Brownstown for USAC sprint week show.  6 cars fighting for the lead 3 X 3 on the dryest slick track I have ever been too.  I had never seen cars 6 cars race for the lead in slow motion, but the racing was awesome.  This year I had never seen cars so fast in the main, and the racing sucked! Knoxville Nationals is another example, the year I went the  track was "too good", it never widened out and the racing was horrible all week.  Since than, i have watched on PPV many races from Knoxville, and the wing racing is actaully quite good at times when the track widens out.  Also seen HORRIBLE USAC Indiana Sprint week shows when they use the 6 car inverts on a dry slick, huggy pole track.   The first year I went to GAS city, that race stunk worse than the ovals this year.  You can not always control the track (weather plays a key role), but the format is something the sanctioning body/race promoter can control.   

I'll give the PAS "a pass" on charging too much this year.  $60 for tickets was a bargain for 3 nights of racing, Parking though sucks, and food prices not that horrible anymore.  PAS hasn't really raised their concession prices compared to the general community.  But most tracks are liberal on bringing outside food in, if your discrete.  I remember when PAS first opened and they would not even let baby food in.  It's much different now, but I WAS TOTALLY SURPRISED THEY WOULD LET ME BRING IN THEIR OWN TRACK FOOD this year.

I've never met Don K, but from the people I have talked with say he is a super guy and cares about the racers and fans.  The reason I do not personally go to PAS, the format sucks for me on a weekly basis,  expense of tickets/food for a small car count, parking fees, and racing is hit and miss.  And to a point, I kinda blame PAS for the SCRA/USAC divide and sprint car racing locally never has gotten back to where it was    (but that is not why I do not attend.)  ALSO THE TRAFFIC IS A HEADACHE.  With that all said, if the racing was good with good car counts, I would be there all the time.  Instead, I really enjoy my experience when I go to Tulare and have a better time, better racing and it costs less for me.  For a normal Tualre show, they have KWS and 360 non-wing sprints for $18, no parking fees, and reasonable food concessions, hell not once have they ever said anything about outside food/drink.   For a WOO show there is no comparison in ticket prices and the racing too.   Ventura also lost much of my business (and most sprint car race teams too)  too, even though it is the closest track near me.  It just was not fun anymore going there, TOO MUCH APATHY from everyone invovlved  fans, racers, promters, etc  But I hear the track/racing is getting better

 here is some stats to chew on.  The lack of passing is nothing new for the Ovals lately

2010  Windom Led every Lap at Ovals

2011  Damion Led every Lap

2012  One Pass for the lead with 2 laps to go by Spencer ( Very exciting race at the end) but if Hines could of led every lap too.

2013 No lead changes by Dave.

I will not compare to this the other big race people are mentioning, but just by non-wing standards, the oval nationals have become a parade with the USAC National Format.  Get creative PAS/USAC with both your weekly and special events, otherwise you have converted a die hard southern cal fan of nearly 40 years (old Oskie fan) into a wing fan  and that sucks.

I hear the arguement car owner/driver do want fully inverted heats/main.  I call BS on this argument.  Fast guys will find a way around slower cars all the times, just look at the trophy cup, both wing and non-wing, and the billet cup.    Guys starting nearly dead last won the mainevent let alone the overall win for these races.   Better yet, look at Saturday B mains with Kruser and Bernal charging forward.  Also if slow cars get to lead even just a few laps, they get excited to race more often IMHO.  If guys are always running in the back, kinda hard to get excited to race.  The real racers will also know, they might not have the best race car/motor, but if they are smart they can beat the drivers on pure skill.  And also equally important, the fans will come if you put on a good show.  IF not, ...... the sport is gonna die  I also hear that this format tears up cars.  maybe a little more, but when drivers become familiar with this format, not as much.  Kinda like ventura.   the VRA guys with their pea pick heats tended to tear up less equipment than when CRA came, WHY because the locals were used to running on a bowl ring, while many of the CRA guys tended only to run PAS and did not know how race Ventura cleanly wrecked a few cars.  Kinda the same at Santa Maria at times.  I'm also not saying have fully inverted mains for the ovals, maybe fully inverted heats, and maybe 8 or even 12 car invert for Friday's main.

Bottom line  .....  HELL I DONT KNOW.   The promoters want to put on the best show so fans come out, they need to make some money and they try to offer the best ticket prices they can,  THEY  ALSO TRY to have the best race tracks, etc.  SOmetimes it just doesn't work out.  Looking at results for the last couple of years, the oval nationals needs some changes in format though.

I DO NOT WANT TO SOUND NEGATIVE.   As a non-wing sprint car community, its alright to bitch/fight among ourselves.  WE ALL LOVE THE SPORT AND want Don K, USAC and PAS to have a great event.  On the positive side, PAS had a good car counts with quality drivers from Midwest, AZ, and CRA supporting it.  Good crowds.  The pre race festivities were touching this year, the ticket prices were affordable. The 360 race could turn into something big     If they fix/change the format and track prep, this race could reach it old glory days as the Best Non-Wing Sprint car race in the world.   As it is, it's just another USAC sprint car race with a shitty format. 

 I DISAGREE 100%   THE TACKY TRACK CAUSED THE FLIPS . jdfast , that is as far off as one can be . it is impossible for a track to cause a flip , even when a track has 2 foot deep ruts the driver still decides where to put the car  . what is possible is for cars, drivers , and the guys that set up and tune the cars  to cause flips . no matter what the track conditions are at any given time all cars on the track at that time are facing the same conditions . it really does not matter what track condition the teams face , they all face the same conditions together . what matters is what each team and driver does with those conditions , this is what sets dirt racing apart from pavement . with dirt the teams turn into fortune tellers trying to predict conditions that the car and driver will face twards the end of a race , and tune the car for these predicted conditions  . we have the ability to loosen the cars up to race on any dirt surface no matter how tacky . with tulare its more about how the fast line is there and how close the car and driver are to the edge of no return when utilizing the fast line . for some strange reason the k-rail ut tulare likes to grab the cars !! lol ..

with non-wing racing on the west coast not having the car counts it once had , it is extremely important to the teams that we dont destroy our cars just to please the crowd  . with some of the lower buck teams a bent chassis might mean a 6 month time out , or more . we all know how easy it is to kill a car . not all the teams have the resources and ability to be back at the track the week after killing a car . with that said i wish some of the drivers with less experience would consider the health of our sport before they make that  crazy move that takes out someone elses car . we are in a tough time and must survive . we all must be proactive in keeping what we love .

Drama , Controversy , Rivalry 

Spot on John!

Doug Bushey

Passionate Fan / Announcer / Media & Public Relations 
Agent