Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Nothing too exciting other than I see the WoO is only scheduled for 1 night instead of the traditional 2 times before nationals.

2014 Knoxville Raceway Schedule
April
12 (Sa) Practice Night
19 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series Season Opener KCCS #1 plus 305’s– Pella Motors Race For Your School Night/Lion’s Club Night (1,1,1)
26 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #2 plus 305’s (2,2,2)

May
3 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #3 plus 305’s – Slideways/Pella Printing Night (3,3,3)
10 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #4 plus 305’s and Dirt Trucks (4,4,4)
17 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #5 plus 305’s – Knoxville McKay Insurance/Allied Insurance Night (5,5,5)
24 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #6 plus 305’s – Pizza Hut Night (6,6,6)
31 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #7 plus 305’s – Pella Corp & JDRF are Racing to a Cure for Diabetes Night (7,7,7), National Sprint Car Hall of Fame and Induction Banquet

June
7 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #8 plus 305’s – Titan Machinery Night (8,8,8)
13 (Fr) To be announced
14 (Sa) Mediacom Shootout World of Outlaws Sprint Cars plus 360’s KCCS #9 (9,9,8)
15 (Su) To be announced
20 (Fr) Nostalgia at Knoxville
21 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series Mid Season Championships KCCS #10 plus 305’s – Farm Bureau Night (10,10,9), Knoxville Raceway Hall of Fame Induction Banquet
28 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #11 Marion County Cattlemen, Corn and Soybean Growers Night 360 Twin Features Night (11,11&12,9)

July
5 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #12 & 13, Town Crier 410 Twin Features – Fill the Stands for Hospice Night (12&13,13,9)
11 (Fr) Marion Co. Fair Entertainment – Hairball in Concert
12 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #14 plus 305’s, Marion Co. Fair– HyVee Night (14,14,10)
15 (Tu) Marion Co. Fair Entertainment – Full Blown Rodeo
17 (Th) To be announced
19 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #15 plus 305’s – 3M Night (15,15,11)
26 (Sa) Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #16 plus 410’s & 360’s– Candi’s Flowers Night (16,16,11)
31 (Th) 24th Annual Arnold Motor Supply 360 Knoxville Nationals

August
1 (Fr) 24th Annual Arnold Motor Supply 360 Knoxville Nationals
2 (Sa) 24th Annual Arnold Motor Supply 360 Knoxville Nationals plus 305’s (16,16,12)
3 (Su) Knoxville Championship Cup Series Capitani Classic 410’s KCCS #17 (17,16,12)
6 (Wd) 54th Annual FVP Knoxville Nationals – RacingJunk.com Qualifying
7 (Th) 54th Annual FVP Knoxville Nationals
8 (Fr) 54th Annual FVP Knoxville Nationals – SPEED SPORT World Challenge
9 (Sa) 54th Annual FVP Knoxville Nationals
23 (Sa) *Lucas Oil Knoxville Championship Cup Series KCCS #18 – Walmart Night (18,17,13)
24 (Su) Knoxville Enduro

September
19 (Fr) Monster Jam
20 (Sa) Monster Jam
25 (Th) 11th Annual Lucas Oil Late Model Knoxville Nationals presented by Casey’s General Store
26 (Fr) 11th Annual Lucas Oil Late Model Knoxville Nationals presented by Casey’s General Store
27 (Sa) 11th Annual Lucas Oil Late Model Knoxville Nationals presented by Casey’s General Store

wow only 1 outlaw show before the nationals?

They only have 1 show because the crowds are pathetic. Everywhere else the Outlaws draw big crowds, they do not anymore at Knoxville.  Really Sad

One too many Outlaw shows IMO.  The quality of racing for the regular shows is wayyyyyy better.

From a business standpoint it makes a lot of sense.  By having more than one show, you give people CHOICES, which isn't always a good thing.  Weather is iffy in April/early May, so people will skip it and say, we'll hit the one in June instead.  June rolls around and it's "forgot there were snow make-up days for the kids' school and they have to go into next week, it's no big deal, they'll be here again in August for the Nationals....."

IMO, if I were on the Fairboard, I'd have voted for ZERO WoO races on the regular season schedule and instead worked on cultivating a new event instead (whether it be racing or non-racing).  From a business standpoint, I'd "bet the farm" that the Raceway lost more $$$$ on each of the 2 outlaw shows last year than they lose on all the other weekends COMBINED.  The crowds were terrible (and of the people that come every week to the races, it's amazing how many don't attend when the WoO are in town (it's more than 1/2).

I'd venture to guess the biggest $$$ making nights in 2013 (outside of Nationals, and 360 Nationals) were the Hairball Concert, The MonsterJam weekend and the Capitani Classic.  I'd say they maybe broke even on the Late Model Nationals this past year due to it raining most of hte day Saturday (and the fans staying home thinking it would be postponed to Sunday).

Donimus,

The really sad part is even with the pathetic crowds @ Knoxville for the Outlaws, they are still better than 90% of the crowds on the WoO schedule (most of hte tracks they still race at don't hold more than 2500-3000 people).

Your last line Vandy was spot on. I've been to all Outlaw shows the past few years and I thought the crowd was okay. More than a "regular" night but the stands are soo big it dwarfs a crowd of 5-7k. 

I want to see USAC back on the schedule but they'd have to pair it up with the regulars to fill the seats.  

I wasn't able to go, but I'm glad that Monster Trucks were put on the schedule to pull in new fans to the venue and returning in 2014. 

To combine a post about 305 sprints at Des Moines...Knoxville and it's fans are so used to having only sprints but I think that does little to help bring in new fans. If Tony is successful in bringing in the 305's to the capital city and show some open wheel action to taxi cab fans I can see  at least a few of those who enjoy the show go to Knoxville. 

We don't need to crosspolinate on a regular basis but if Knoxville has a FEW fendered shows mixed with sprints or vice versa I don't see how this can hurt bringing in a new fan base. 

Keep It Real

I agree, I'd rather see a Lucas or WoO Late Model combo with a regular night than a WoO Sprint show.

How do you ever grow the fanbase for the weekly events if your specials are spints too?  Answer, you don't, it's a special show for your regular fans....

I like the idea of USAC or a non-wing show, the biggest issue I see is how poorly USAC runs their race events (I've attended them and 95% of the shows I've attended have been strung out (the program that is) because USAC officials are still under the delusion that how they ran things in the 1960's still works in the 2010's.  The racing is GREAT, but the downtime kills the program.

MonsterJam seemed to me (as someone that helped with the Boy Scout Color guard each night and attended Friday) as though it had more people in attendance and more "BUZZ" in the stands than ANY event all year (and that includes the Nationals).  It's figuring out how to attract that crowd to come to a weekly race or two that needs to be explored.

Sprint car racing (and all of short track racing for that matter) needs to attract NEW fans, attracting the same group over and over and over eventually leads to smaller crowds (people get old and the young fans get busy when they have their own kids and have to skip the races to make sure their kids enjoy life too (baseball, softball, football, etc., etc., etc.).

I think the traveling circus is pricing itself out of some tracks.

 
I LEARNED ESP FROM MY MOM

"PUT YOUR SWEATER ON: DON'T YOU THINK I KNOW WHEN 
YOU'RE COLD?"

1 Night Stand Only Huh!! As opposed to the good old days back when we had 2 - 2 night shows and a 1 night Fair Race. Kind of crazy that the Premier Sprint Car Track in the Country only hosts 1 World of Outlaw show a year now. Other than the Nationals.

makes more sense, I remember that 2 day show in April being rained (or snowed) out multiple times.  The last few 2 day shows (and 3 day show one year) have had HORRIBLE crowds (less than 1000) for the first night (or first 2 nights).  I wish they still had the mid-week WoO show during the fair, but the past few years it's realy hard to do when the Outlaws are in OH and PA during Fair week (do they come to Knoxville instead of the BDC or the Silver Cup).

It makes better BUSINESS sense to have a 1 day stand alone show to make it a "must see" event for the "casual fans".

I'm more interested in what the TBA events are the night prior and night after the WoO (I'm thinking it's probably late models on Friday and AMA flat track bikes on Sunday).  That makes a WAYYYYY better weekend than WoO sprints on Friday and Saturday (and I'm a sprint car fan).

More isn't always better....

The only way to grow the fanbase in Knoxville is to bring back Porkchop for entertainment between races!!!!LOL!!!!!

to people there for the races only, yes I agree that he was annoying.

The miopic views of most "fans" is what will kill short track racing (and all racing for that matter).  It's time to realize that the existing fanbase cannot support the purses or operating expenses of local short tracks.  There are really 2 choices left at this point, (1) decrease costs -- ie:  more timely shows, so less payroll, electricity, etc. OR cut purses (which would mean less competitors, which in turn means less fans) and raise admission prices (I think we all agree that this is not a good idea) or (2) decrease costs as outlines above and INCREASE the # of fans coming through the gates (if that means "casual fans" or non-race fans, so be it).

I would much rather have to see an event held that I have no desire to go see or attend (MonsterJam for example) that RAISES the revenue of the track so that the events I want to see (racing) can continue to go on.  Unfortunately, I feel that I am in the minority as all I ever seem to hear in the stands is:  "why are they running Late Models in September, those should be Sprint Car shows" or "IMCA Mods for the fair, come on, let's have the Outlaws instead" or "Hairball, who is that, why can't they get someone good to come in" or the ever so present "They are making all kinds of money during Nationals, it doesn't matter if they lose money on the regular shows". Hate to be the one to break it to people, ALL SHOWS need to turn a profit for the racetrack to remain a viable entity.  My guess is that the raceway costs a pretty penny to sit IDLE during the week and during the winter (ie: it loses $$$$ when not in use).  There are only a certain # of days available during nice weather to raise REVENUE and to attempt to turn a profit so they can afford to do upgrades (sound system, seating (remember the old wooden grandstand seating), concrete walkways, paint, signage, advertising).  If it costs $5000 a week to operate the facility (probably not out of the realm of possiblity), is it better to run a race and lose $10,000 or just leave the place closed and lose $5000?   Leave it closed is teh answer.  However, if the weekly shows make it so they only lose $1000 per week instead of $5000 (which is probably about what is happening), it's a smart BUSINESS decision.

It's a shame Knoxville doesn't draw well for the Outlaws. I was there in May for the race (which was great by the way, 53 cars, amazing action) and there weren't more than 2,000 people there I'd say, huge grandstand or not.

Have to completely push back on the idea that K-Ville crowds match or better that of most of the Outlaw tour. Of the races I went to this year alone, all 4 Grove races, Elko, 2 Eldora shows, Lernerville, Lebanon Valley and Skagit all had way more people than the show in May.

You went to pretty much every track that has seating capacity greater than 5000.....have you ever went to some of the podunk places they race (I have, there is NO WAY they seat anywhere close to 3000, let alone 5000).

A MAJORITY of the tracks the Outlaws race at don't have a seating capacity of greater than 2500 (and even some of those aren't full).

I'll put it to you another way.  I went to the Late Model Nationals in September and the crowd was down (due to weather on Saturday).  A guy sitting near us told me that there were more people @ Knoxville than ANY race he had attended all year outside of the World 100 (and there were maybe 5000-6000 there that night tops).  I thought he was nuts, but he said the other tracks look like they have a lot, but they only have 10-12 rows of seating.  Told me that Knoxville has FAR more seating than Eldora does (but Eldora looks like it has more due to the hillside seating stretching from turns 3 all the way to turn 2).

Appearances can look VERY deceiving.  If we took the weekly crowd @ Knoxville and put them in the grandstands at Osky, it'd be standing room only (the crowd at Knoxville is so spread out it's scary.  You have 20 booths at the Hall of Fame (that seat 20, so there's 400, and you have ~40 suites on the Frontstretch (that vary in seating from 8-16, so let;s just say they all seat 10, there's another 400 people , so you have nearly 1000 attendees with ZERO people in the grandstand yet.  Take 2000 people and spread them out over the 16,289 seats on the frontstretch.  You have 16 sections AA,BB and A -N and 40 rows in each.  You put 4 people TOTAL in each row in each section and you have 2560 people in the grandstand and it looks EMPTY.

Take that same 2560 and 1000 and put them at pretty much any other track and it's standing room only.

Why don't they schedule a Friday night make up date for mid to late June or July?  They annually lose two or three of the April and May dates to weather, and the drivers and teams would have plenty of time to plan.  A two night show in the middle of the summer would be worth a drive and an overnight stay.  Also, why doesn't the ASCS National tour run there during the year, outside of the 360 Nationals?

Hey I like that idea NKC. A make up date on Friday for a 2 day regular show would be something to try anyway. Maybe just schedule a 2 day regular show at mid season anyway? With regular priced tickets and regular purse, maybe a bonus for winning both nights, could stir some intrest. If the WoO shows were a big money maker for Knoxville I'm sure they'd have them as often as possible. I think part of the reason WoO shows don't draw what people think they should at Knoxville is our regular fans mostly have Nationals tickets also and that's a big chunck for a familys entertainment budget. People wait to see the big boys in August.

this all gets down to $ and cents.  You can not schedual races if you can not make money.  WOO purse is high enough that you can lose alot of money.  You can in part blame the fans.  Fans think at Knoxville they can see this any time so why go today.  I think ticket price also has alot to do with it.  Economy is not all that good.  If person took wife and 2 kids to WOO race you are talking about alot of money.  I guess I would be selfish and go by my self.  All racing needs is fans in the stands.