Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Just one major question I have these days that ive asked a few times and its ignored it seems and trust me not tryin to be a pain in the ass. Why do sprint cars have cubic inch limits? Apparently most of the local racers around the country try to play by the rules and stay around 406-410 c.i . Its very apparent when the Outlaws come to town and blow the side panels off the local competition I mean to the point where its not even close anymore. The cars are basically all the same, weigh the same, use the same tires and as far as I know they both put there firesuits on the same, I mean I havent seen any capes on any of the new heroes of the sport, though local drivers usually have to work a day job before racing on the weekend you cant tell me that its all the driver these days that make the difference now that everybody bascially has good equipment. Now im somewhat educated and have been around sprint car racing since I could crawl Im not saying that makes me an expert of any sort and Im sure ive been wrong more than I have been right. Also I know racing 5 nights a week makes a huge difference in the seat as far as driving, but listen to the outlaw cars and listen to a local going down the front stretch there is a huge difference, I mean a noticable difference in the ring of the engines. I really dont understand why its normal to read the classifieds in the winter and come across an outlaw team selling a motor thats in the 430-440 c.i. range and nothing is being said about it??? I know many think 440 cubic inches out of a small block is outrageous but people have to realize guys like Hank Smith, Fred Kain, and Leonard McCarl to name a few where making 440's out of small blocks back in the 70's out of 327 blocks and huge stroked cranks around the 4 1/4 range, before the age of aluminum blocks so one can imagine how much work went into making one of those cast iron monsters run before the age of the name brand engines that is the norm today. Theres a little known saying in the racing industry that applies to both drag racing and sprint car racing and that is there is no substitute for cubic inches. I know the head technology is outrageous these days and some are spending more on a set of heads these days than a entire engine assembly cost even 10 years ago?? Where will it stop? I dont wanna see more rules but I really think some of the hot dogs should be teched by a non-biased official that has no ties to the outlaws or any other sanctioning body just to see how many are legal and illegal. They start enforcing rules like that we just might start to see the racing grooves tigthen back up again and give the little guys of the sport a chance to run with the big boys.

I mean hell nobody would of enjoyed seeing Mike Tyson in his day of glory come into the boxing ring with a contender that had litterally no chance of winning and the judges starting Tyson 3 rounds ahead on a score car would they? Starting the guys with all the money and all the equipment in the front rows is exactly what enrages the fans these days and is killing the sport " let em race for it" is all im saying and hopefully im not alone

It's not just about cubic inches - most of the Outlaw 410's put out about 850 hp, and get rebuilt every 5-6 races. Your average local 410 racer has about 725-750 HP, and can usually run 20 shows before a rebuild is required. The WoO boys run their motors much harder than a local guy - leaner on fuel(more HP), higher RPM, higher compression. They also spend about $35 to 40K per motor - and usually keep 4 or 5 on hand. They run the best parts, and keep them fresher than the local guy.

Let's also face the fact that, while we like to see a local guy compete against and win when they race with the WoO, we all pay the higher prices to see the WoO because we want to see the WoO.

They've always set the rules for the country - they banned big blocks years ago because they'd get their buts kicked when they races against the Posse. Big blocks were cheaper, and at the time, made more HP than the WoO motors. So they legislated them out of business. And if you want to run with the WoO, you play by their rules.

And anyone competing with the WoO can protest what they feel is an illegal car or motor - this is right from the WoO rule book.

Chuck.....

"If" the WoO follows through with what they say, there will be a few engine rules added for next year.

The more they focus on tires and wings (and there are some interesting things in the offing to be announced shortly, I think), the less horsepower matters and set-up will count. Crews are going to figure out how to get the most out of a car, regardless of the rules.

sprinter25 has good info in his post. Using some of the facts that he mentioned, would it not be worthwhile to look into a one engine a night rule? Change one and start at the back the rest of the night, just like most RR tire use rules are now.

Qualifying is where the top outlaw guys really have an advantage. The format now in use takes some of that away in regular WoO competition but an event like the Knoxville Nationals, where time trials get as many points as the feature on qualifying nights, really puts an emphasis back on the engines again. That's where the difference in horsepower really matters.

The other thing is this. Regardless of the rules, the best of the outlaw drivers are going to get to the front. They are just that much better not because of money or horsepower,ect. but because they race far more often in better competition than the local racer. Steve Kinser once told me that a driver probably matters more now because everybody has good equipment. Dusty Zomer or any other top local guy in the country might have an engine that can compete along with the rest of the car and products being essentially the same as Donny Schatz, but when the track slicks off, that's when the best of the best stand out.

I'd like to get Kelly's imput here on this...was going to a 410 restriction on cubic inches a main reason why engine costs skyrocketed? Was this a bad decision by Ted Johnson and the sport's leaders back when this happened, when you look at it historically? What would happen if all of sprint car racing opened up the cubic inch restrictions and went to a 25/15 rule on the right rear tire? Not trying to put you on the spot but I was just curious.

Put bricks on all 4 corners and it won't mater if the engine is making 1000hp.

Member of this message board since 1997

Hawker's got the right idea - make 'em run hard tires on narrower wheels(say a RR 16 inches wide with a 55 compound and a 12 in wide LR with a 40 compound) and a 4x4, non moveable wing.

Then you might see some drivers emerge from the back of the pack......

Chuck.....

but do we really want to see the cars of yesteryear racing today isnt everything about advancement and not going backwards JMO

Yeah, you're right. I really DO love the freight train, rubberdown, dust bowl "races" we are seeing these days...

Member of this message board since 1997

Wow thats awesome!, now thats an amazing revelation and personally a great system you can protest an engine of an Outlaw team but its gonna cost you money for a protest fee and the World of Outlaws officials are gonna conduct the inspection of the engine in question, wouldnt it make perfect sense for a sanctioning body such as the Outlaws who dominate the competition like they do so well all over the country to have a little edge on everyone??? Trust me im not questioning sprint car racing because I personally love the sport. And I enjoy watchin the Outlaws along with our normal weekend racing at Knoxville But I will say something needs to be done to make better races, If they did that I guarentee you all across the country car counts and crowds would be back better than ever.

What a load of shit... the cars have never been more equal, narrow wheels and tires won't make a crap of difference other than for the teams to spend more money building new cars around whatever useless new rules they make...

They are wing sprintcars ...everyone should stop trying to fix them...

If you can't afford a 410 run a 305 or a 360...

If you wan't the cars freed up go to a F****** NON WINGED RACE or better still a midget race.

It's absolute crap that there is less 410 racing and less fans going to watch it, or even that there is less passing ....

IF there is less passing it's because the cars and drivers have never been more equal.....The King himself has said it has never been so tough .... that's because everything is equal now.... The King is now sitting in the same bloody car everyone else is.... God love him he won a lot of championships because he had way better equipment than most of the field .... it aint the case anymore ....

Donny Schatz sits in a racecar that anyone can go and get from J&J ..there's no tricks ...Shaver builds great motors but there is faster ones out there.... get the point ....

OH and HAWKER .... every time I see you post something it's nothing but pissing and moaning and over exageration....there has been around 48 WOO races this year and you could count on 1 hand how many have been rubber down ...

STOP YOUR COMPLAINING AND FIND ANOTHER SPORT TO WINE ABOUT....

what you are saying applies very well to outlaws against outlaws. But this is about how the local guy can be more competitive without having to spend the outrageous amounts of money that a Lasoski or Schatz does. Is it not ironic to any of ya'll that we are witnessing the death of actual car owners? There are fewer and fewer of em every year. What is the point seriously? It's always been the type of deal you do because you love the sport and it was the owners desire to do it. But these days there is just so much other stuff to spend the dough on. Prices with everything are going up at a rate that isn't very consistent with anything. Almost seems there are no regulations. So if you have a profitable business and you love sprint car racing and also have a family. The difference between competitively fielding a 410 versus a 360 is probably your kids college tuition or your retirement. And 360's are costing a ton these days. I watched the ASCS Speedweek show in OKC tonight and other than track conditions it was a really good show. But with the rules set in place and the amount of money this all takes.......we will see nothing but the continued growth of 305's and the continual downfall of the 410's and maybe in time the 360's as well. I love the speed of the 360's and 410's but for the long-term it needs rules that somehow (and no BS I don't what rules would do it) keep the prices somewhat down.....to where a major advantage would be the amount of time you spend workin on the car.......not how many businesses your father owns. But lets not all worry too much.......appreciate the good racing we are still able to see and hope that the problems are solved before they become insurmountable.

sprint car racing has managed to make it this far.......and its still a treat to watch.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Quote: OKCFAN "sprint car racing has managed to make it this far.......and its still a treat to watch." This I agree with 100 % ...

I would like to point out however...That if a local guy wants to compete with an outlaw he can today better than ever before .... the difference between 1 Outlaw car and 1 good local car is absolutely nothing... the outlaw team has 10 of them though, but 1 on 1 there is no difference. Having said that though if a WOO team is doing 100 races he probably needs a lot of equipment behind him... but this has very little to do with how competitive a locals car is on todays race track anywhere accross America.......... Anyone can get the same car and motor as an Outlaw virtually off the shelf ... the old days are gone .................

Trust me we all wanna beleive that but its been known over the years that certain teams have certain equipment. Its not a bad thing just happens sometimes when big money enters the equation. It used to crack me up when someone bought a motor from Swindell and they would tell you about how Sammy raced this very motor, well he did for sure but before he sold it the the X-marked cam came out and somethin off the shelf went back in along with any other trick-shit. The cars are so very close these days and little tweaks here and there make the difference these days. At the end of last year when Schatz was on a tear Lasoski threw a fit about the Vortex wing on Schatz's car it had a special tweak to it and was actually found illegal when tech'd. I know Lynton and I was the pizza sponsor on the side so I heard all about it. Even wings that where made mandatory where a safety device now they are another form of tuning the race car for speed. Karl Kinser said it best many years ago "If you ain't cheating, you aint winnin" I mean Karls cars that came from Maxim where specially built, somethin other guys couldnt buy. Its not a bad thing just some have a little more advantage than others. Im sure its the same way in the engine department, if you have a guy thats buying 7 to 10 motors at a time you are gonna have what you want plus having em gone through every 5 races and its not gonna be the same as the guy that has 1 or 2, hell once again fairly normal thing and nobody is pointing fingers at anyone all alot of us bitch about is it is not fun to watch the guys that have the money and equipment racing against the have nots and starting in the front rows. I can't stand NASCAR but ill watch the last 10 laps when it gets interesting those cars are equal to a T but you notice once in a while some teams push the limits and get caught In any form of motorsports you must posess a bit of a technoligical edge. Now Im not taking a thing away from the guys of today at all it still takes balls and its still risking your life for minimal pay at times. We have helped out a few teams and like Ive said the best thing that could happen to any arm chair quarterbacks in the stands that criticize the driving of anyone the best thing that could happen is to be able to sit in a sprinter and be able to drive it, then you realize how hard it is to control and how limited the visibility actually is. The old days are gone for sure but its debatable if its a good or bad thing. If you doubt me when one of the local drivers that is great runs 18th in an Outlaw show walk up and ask him what he thinks those Outlaw teams are doing?

would be an interesting concept to pull both heads and the pan of the top 5 finishers at the Nationals, then have someone that knows something tech them.

I suggest Bruce for the job. lol

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I hope you are including Friday night's show at the Grove as one of the rubber down WoO races you can count on one hand this season. With a third straight night of racing on the track coming up, I am thinking tonight will be more of the same. A local won the feature Friday night, and I will still tell you the racing was rubber down and lousy.

dont you think that is more of a track prep problem than the actual cars though

Track prep has a bit to do with it. But it is a double edged sword. If you get a nice, tacky, dust free track, then everyone is locked down and it's a single file freight train.

The local 360 track we race at seems to be heading in the right direction. We can only run the SC25 RR tire and the track has been staying in decent shape and there have been some pretty good battles. I would now like to see them go to a harder LR tire. The Hard RR tire helps unhook the car, but when you can still bolt on a D10 LR, to me, it defeats the purpose.

Member of this message board since 1997

hawker you can bolt the hardest tires you want on and the guys that go out and invest in traction controll will love it. don't think it is not happening already. you cant find the new t/c in all the elactronics on a sprint car now-a-days. hell change a chip in a tach and there you go. they even have wireless t/c. don't think that teams looking for any advantage aren't overlooking that. a tire rule will cut costs, but only if all teams were spending the same per tire to begin with. with only one compound tire allowed you don't have to invest in several compounds to have on hand and mounted. but why make everyone spin their tires and slide around on the hard compounds. only a few teams will figure out how to hook the things up and then you are right back where you started. with a few teams kicking butt.

Put a $400 claim on the ignition box and your $4000 TC box just became obsolete. Or, better yet....maybe DIRT could take some of that $62,000,000 they've spent and buy MSD boxes that would be handed out each night at the driver's meetings.

Member of this message board since 1997