Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

professional world sport does not penalise the best entrant except sprintcar racing.  once the qualifing order is drawn then the fastest car should start on the front of the heat and if finishing in the first 4 or 5 should start in position 1 in the feature. no we have to have some mickey mouse deal where if you get lucky (you qualified bad and you start on the pole) it's all good. every good sprintcar team has virtually the same horsepower, the same or similar chassis, the same big haulers in the pits so lets get real and stop this disneyland crap! imagine telling top golfers or tennis or a nascar team that they are on a handicap for being the best or fastest qualifier. having the fastest cars up front will usually give you a better race. most times it's better to qualify about tenth or so you get a front row start in your heat, then you make the dash and then you might get lucky to draw (yes you guessed it!) the pole. by the way this has nothing to do with brad sweet's great win at the kings royal.

No way. I'm unconvinced. 

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You can count on this fan skipping any race with a format where the fastest car starts up front.

How is straight up starts increasing the fanbase for NASCAR these days?  Double file restarts increasing the fanbase?

My point is, fans go to watch cars pass each other.  Straight up starts (generally), means very little passing, or no passing depending on the track conditions (if track conditions are bad, it's even worse, as the leaders can't get through traffic because there is only one line to race). 

If you think Sprint car racing is the only racing that penalizes cars, your crazy.  EVERY form of dirt track racing (except the Lucas Oil Late Models), have an invert of some sort (or worse, some only draw for starting position, which means it's all luck, the 10 fastest cars in attendance can all end up in the same heat race with only 4 moving on to the main).

As far as the dash goes, IMO it's a worthless event, I'd much rather see them scrap the dash and change the rules so that teams have to run the same RR tire from Time Trials through the main event (currently, they only have to get 14-15 laps out of there tire before they get to bolt on a new one for the main, change that rule and all of a sudden tire choice and driving ability are gonna mean a lot more (that same tire now has to go up to 50 laps).

IMO, the way the Nationals are lined up is about as good of a way you can do it as any.  Invert the heats and prelim features, but give points for qualifying position and finishing positions and then line up the big $$$$ race by point totals (the fast cars ALWAYS end up being hte cars with the most points).

Comparing racing to any other form of sport is stupid as well.  Racing events are a one night (generally) event, whereas stick and ball sports all culminate with a playoff at the end of the season (and if a team gets "hot" at the right time, they win the championship even though they may have been the 12th best team in their league or the last team to qualify for the playoffs (Pittsburgh Steelers not too many years ago come to mind).  How is that any different than an invert?  They give a chance to win a championship to a mediocre team, why not just give it to the team with the best record at the end of the season?  Why, because there is a lot more DRAMA involved when an undefeated Patriots team loses the Superbowl than when the season ends and they hand someone a trophy because they didn't lose all season.

It's applies and oranges, you can't compare the two becuase of their vast differences.

I remember when I was growing up, the helmet dash was the first race of the night.  The 4 fastest qualifiers for 4 laps.  I always liked that format it just kicked the night off right.

When it came to feature time it was a FULL INVERSION.  Fastest car on the tail.  You had to work traffic and protect your equipment if you wanted to win.

The only time there was a straight up start was for a special show or invitational as they were called.

Now, granted back then there was a much wider gap between the fastest car and the slowest giving the guys starting in the back a good chance at getting through and they usually did.  Nowadays with everything being "equal" the chances of it happening are pretty slim.  The best nights were those when the fast cars got tied up in traffic and one of the "little guys" pulled off a win, always a crowd pleaser.

Ditto

I grew up around dirt modifieds in the northeast and we always ran under a handicap system . except for a few of the bigger races like syracuse virtually all the weekly shows were handicapped and the fast guys always started near the rear . almost all our wins were from 14th or further back. just to have the fast guys start up front and run away will make for boring racing , especially for the fans

Trophy Cup style, fastest to the back, then let them have at it! Best racing you will see! 

Full inverts (like the Nationals USED to be) to transfer, Then a Dash to line them up for the Feature.

Beef up the Points for Qualifications for sandbagging purposes

Not here to bash late models, but went to a WOO LM show within the last couple weeks and it was a pretty boring show.  Why?  They do not invert from qualifying to the heats.  All heat winners were from the front row.  The feature was won from the pole(obviously Lanigan got lucky in the redraw).  They need to have some invert for this type(dirt track) racing.  Favorite races of the year are heats on Wednesday/Thursday(now Friday as well) for the Nationals because of the inverts. 

How about we don't and say we did. I read Earl Baltes book last year and in it he talked about having a race at his track where their was absolutely no passing. Where they started was where they finished and told the sanctioning body that he would not have them back unless they started inverting the field. That was back in the 60's so I can guarantee you that it would be 10times worst now with how technology has advanced. All we would see is single file all the way around the track with about 20car length gaps in between each car. The reason you can do it in Nascar is that you have 400-500 miles plus pit stops during the race to adjust the car not to mention practice session in between qualifying and the race to adjust the car.

I get that it sucks that you qualify 1st and you have to pass cars in order to win even though you have a fastest car in qualifying but if you really have the fastest car then you should have no problem getting to the front.

The trophy cup utilizes the exact opposite of what you want and its absolutely some of the most exciting racing for both the fans and drivers. Kyle Larson stated in an interview a couple weeks ago that the race he wants to win more than any other is the Trophy Cup. The Trophy Cup over the Knoxville Nationals, Daytona 500, Indy 500, even Chili Bowl. Of course he wants to win them too but the most meaningful for him is Trophy Cup and you can bank on the fact that its a full inversion show is precisely why. If you want to win that race and take the overall point championship you better have luck, big balls, a ton of talent and be willing to pass cars all weekend long! Any notion that a straight up start in sprint cars would be a good thing is way, way off the mark.

Cheers!

Come to Thunderbowl in late October in central valley of California, twentyfour cars fastest at the back 25Grand to win this year! Best drivers in the country. Think you would enjoy this format.

Peace, Out.

from: central coast of cali.

A simple fact of life is that if you start on the front row in any race you have about a 80% chance you will win.  You see this every day every race.  If the fastest car in time trials is so great he should not have any problem passing cars.  Sprint car raceing is in the entertainment business.  It is hard to compare NASCAR and sprintcars because they have 500 miles to move towards front, sprint cars have 24-40 laps.  Last year F1 had a race that only 1 car passed another, but it was in the pits.  

I agree with most of the folks here that inversion is needed for entertaining competition. What first got me hooked on dirt track was Eastside Speedway in Waynesboro, Va. back in the early '60s. FULL inversion based on points. Smokey Stover started from the back every race & won something like 22 out of 24 in 1962. Couldn't be more exciting! Granted cars (Modified coupes) were more varied back then, Smokey was way faster, but if he started up front, it would have sucked & nobody would have come to the races.

Which is why Trophy Cup is right near the top of my bucket list!

Nationals format is fine with me too, you have to race your way to pole position. Time trials are boring!

go watch F1

"professional world sport does not penalise the best"

False. Teams with worst record gets first pick in the draft

I agree   too much of the starting up front is the winner stuff coming from the woo  . . need more of it  

I like how the Ultimate Challenge use to do it a few years ago, Run 2 sets of heats, Inverting the second heat from where they finished the first, Feature is set on passing points.

False.  In golf, the leaders tee off last, later in the day when conditions are typically worse, greens and fairways are dry and harder to control the landing of your shot and puts are harder to make because the speed of the greens are faster.  In the NFL, the division winners one year get more difficult schedules the next year by playing other division winners in their conference.  Best races of year are always the heats at Nationals.

I'm tired of hearing how inverted lineups are unfair to the racers. A format that results in a guy finishing on the podium without having made a pass for position all night is unfair to the ticket-buying fans. The WoO format these days sucks. I don't know why so many other organizations and tracks copy it. I don't go to the sprint car races to watch time trials or a fast parade. I go to see side-by-side racing, and slicing and dicing for position. Sure seems like there used to be more of that.