Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

What was once a strength to PA 410 teams has now become their weakness. Posse engines are now inferior to the engines the World of Outlaws are using. You could easily hear the difference in warmups and during time trials at Williams Grove this past Friday night. The Outlaw motors (Shavers, Kistler, Speedway, McCormack (SP), etc) sounded much stronger than Posse motors (Ott, Rider, etc). Now, when the track dried out, the PA engines were very good as race engines, but, where it counts in time trials, when the track is heavy, they were at least 2/10ths of a second off in lap times. Since time trials are the key to feature starting positions, it was an uphill battle for many of the Pennsylvania teams. Fortunately, the top 2 heat finisher rule for the dash allowed Hodnett and Rahmer to start up front and compete well in the feature. This may not always work out in the future. Bottom line - I believe it's time the Posse starts looking elsewhere for their horsepower needs.

There might be a reason the #39 won about 10 more races than anyone else in PA. That's the last team in PA using Cappetta engines...

That said, most PA teams can't afford to be shipping engines back and forth across the country for rebuilds, etc...

The Outlaw format makes it a bit of a moot point given it's far better to be in that 7-12, 9-16, 11-20 range (depending on car count).

Under the old format where they take the top 6 or whatever in time trials who made it through the heats, you'd see a big advantage for the Outlaws I would agree.

Darrah is using the Cappeta engines right now  they have been testing and working on combo's the last couple weeks and working on the motor set ups. Seen Rob there at the car this weekend working with them.

I don't think it's that the PA builders can't build a motor just as good as anyone else but the WOO teams can afford to max theirs out and run them closer to the limit(higher compression and RPM's) than the local teams. There's a lot of good owners in central PA still but none with deep pockets like Hamilton and Weikert. I agree that the WOO has pulled further ahead in the engine dept. as evidenced by the sound difference and TT results but it's still a lot closer than it was back in the 90's. Are there any WOO teams still running PA engines? Used to be some out there with Ott's, Morrisons and Garrets.

A

Is charles garrett still building motors? Cappetta motors were good when the city wide team with haudenschild were racing.

I may be wrong but Im thinking one south central indiana WoO engine builder could use a little help from any of the suppliers to the pa teams.

So is this a (not trying to start anything) crutch as to, why the Posse can get it handed to them on any givin open night? Sure Posse soil has great teams, strong cars, excellent engine builders, and some pretty talented drivers. I just don't think they are any better than any other geographical location as others, CA has some Hotshoes, the Midwest has a stable full of capable cars, Posse land just happens to be the Largest local region supporting sprintcars, quite honestly im jelous, but to be so simple minded (as many on here are) is appauling, Schatz is fron the Midwest, been happily spankn the competition for ten years or better now. TK is from CA, can he drive? hell ya! always a threat..Rahmer,Hodnett ect ect, ya, their all strong too.. there is some dam good engine builders out there I don't care what part of the country your in, top enginebuilders don't nessessarly release dozens and dozens of mills they Keep their work under their own scope, some builders follow the lead of others that have tested componets that make or break, The engine builder that comes to my mind is Bob Hamshier, the 63 has been running good lately, and nobody seems to recognize it. qualifying good racin good. and just not the Main stream focus TSR or KKR have, seems the crowd is buisy stumbling over those cars and forget the tiger in sheeps cloathing. Kinsler,Ott,Parker,Rider,Wesmar,Cappetta,Gearte,Ostrich,Shark,Shaver,Moyel,Yates, the list goes on and on.. every one of them will build you something... RULE #1 how fast do you wanna go? #2 how much money do you have? #3 how many do you want ?#4 how soon do you need them? (refer back to Q #2!!)....

The true fans of sprint cars in PA are well aware of the talent from everywhere else in the country and respect it. TK and Larson had a decent amount of fan support in their recent trips to PA, regardless of what you read here (I actually picked Larson Friday night to win in our little pool, lost a buck). Comparing where a driver is from when you are comparing the Posse to the WoO has been pointless in my mind since the argument began. It's who or where you race with. PA just seems to be the only place in the country, where there are enough tracks, races, and fans to support the teams that race there for a living(and very few do anymore, the Weikerts/Hamiltons/Stewarts and so many more owners are gone, and I don't see those guys coming back without a substantial increase in purse money). To me, the only difference between PA's local scene getting all the attention it does, and certain other places, is the rabid fan base that keeps full time racing alive.

As for the engines builders, I absolutely agree. Just because they both say someones name on the valve cover doesn't mean the parts inside are the same. Money buys power, the end.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

The difference between posse engines and outlaw engines is ZERO. The same deballing, chevy lovin, clone-promoting rule book is used by both and just about all the builders have run engines with both.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

wrong. have you recently purchased a set of $1400.00 forged 13 degree pistons for your 283?, buy a set of shaft rockers for your Powerpak heads and let me know if they fit correctly? Oe! lifters! did you know the design of most Donovin,Brodix,ect blocks lifter bores are that of the Chrysler desighn , raised cams! oe ya, the same deal as your Monte carlos 350..right? These are specific race engines that gradually evolved from the small block Chevrole..t clear back to 1955 shortly there after the SBC became a fit in a sprinters chassis, power to weight of sprinters was best achieved from SBC , Im sorry, but even racers back then wanted the best piece for their strength to win. ultimately over time pieces are tested, broken, and replaced with better components and specifications to accomidate that. Luckily, Im a huge SBC fan, bu,t I understand there was a time when that engine wasn't avalible, Todays top sprint engine is anything but a SBC, a relative, yes, but that was over 40 years ago.. The mopars are becoming more familiar the past few years, with yates on board I expect the Fords to become in the mainstream sometime, to each his own, but if I called a Mopar "simply a Mopar" in the sprintcar world I would be pretty ignorant to understand its complexity evolved from the basic Mopar desighn, but far far from your uncles 1970 duster..

I have to agree with dirtdevil, there remains a great deal of diversity with regard to engines utilized in 410 sprint cars. Everybody is constantly looking for an edge on the race track and horsepower is a primary focal point. If it truly does come down to the money and how much owners are willing to spend, well, the outlaws have plenty of it. But, they always have. I don't believe top PA car owners are willing to go to the track against the outlaws knowing they are at a distinct disadvantage under the hood. To witness first hand the horsepower difference between the outlaws and the Posse was an eye opener to me and hopefully to the Posse as well. It's time to step it up when the outlaws return in July.