Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Well here's a bit to think about.

Average cost of an "Outlaw" rules 410 engine?

What do you think? $45grand? $50grand? $55grand?

At that, how many nights (laps) will it run until it needs to be freshened?

Now the cost of a freshen?? $5grand? $6grand $7grand???

Let's say we have a $50,000 engine to start. Let's say we can run 12 nights (very optimistic) at $6000 a freshen. We'll call it conservatively $500 a night for engine upkeep.

Now imagine the cost to run a night beside engine upkeep. You know tire$ and fuel$ and chassi$, $uspension, wing, and wheel upkeep.

Of course the track will be anywhere from home town to 2000 miles away. Fuel is $4 a gallon+.

Let's see……………… pit passes, burgers for the diligent crew, refreshments for the diligent crew.

And of course the ride home.

Please remember I am quoting all of this for "OUTLAW" caliber equipment.

Now another point, let's say we're racing for the average Outlaw pay, what?? Maybe $10grand to win, $800-$1000 to start.

Crunch these numbers and things are not on the good side of the calculator. O.K. the Outlaws have BIG $$$ sponsors that can easily cover any discrepancy in the bottom line.

How many clubs across the country race with "OUTLAW" rules? Realistically way the Hell too many. Sure, probably MOST of the competitors won't have equipment that would give them a snowballs chance in a warm place to win (even in their given club). These days making the main isn't all that big a deal at all too many 410 club races. What 3 or 4 or maybe, and I mean "MAYBE" 5 cars in any given club have an honest chance to win. Probably the guys with what might have at least started life as "OUTLAW" caliber equipment.

The Outlaws started life adapting to any individual tracks rules (realistically). Now these tracks emulate the Outlaws, but given the chance, 95% of their competitors will not race with the Outlaws. Million$ spent on Outlaw rules equipment??????

Here's an idea………Without going to completely new and or different equipment or displacement (LS1 or 360).

2.50" fuel injection, necked down stacks as are and have been used already

14:1 compression, MAXIMUM!!!!! Not all that tough a change

7900 RPM MAX!!!! Chip you know, race chip given out at the beginning of any race and returned at the scale.

Maybe a tire that might last more than one night and still be competitive.

Imagine an engine that might run for 15 to 20 nights and cost way less $$$ to freshen.

Imagine all of 6 or 7 cars with an honest chance to win.

410 caliber competition, hundreds of thousands of $$$ saved.

Let the Outlaws run whatever they want to run. Remember, I did not in any way suggest the Outlaws should change anything. A few tracks in Pennsylvania, Knoxville, run whatever you want. It would be cool to have 30 or more cars at any given weekly show. At the end of that show, most of those competitors talking about setup, or stagger and things to make them faster next week, rather than worrying about paying bills and making it to the track at all.

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

Dude, step away from the Redbull....

I tell it like I see it.

I hear what your saying and personally don't have a problem with trying to keep local racing in check. The problem always comes down to the fact that alot of times tracks do float ideas like this and some guys are for it but then a bunch of them come in and want nothing to do with rules like that cause as much as pretty much all racers will complain about the cost, a large % of them are also the first to have their money on the table to buy something that may give them any kind of an edge and when it comes right down to it they don't want to be regulated as to what they can buy. Thats why there always seems to be a new supposed lower budget class coming out and within 5 years it always seems that class is no longer lower budget. i.e. the current talk about the 305 class and the amount of money that some are spending on those motors and equipment just to get a supposed edge, and maybe they do, and then all of the sudden the bar has now been set that much higher and then 3/4 of the field is spending that much on there motor just to be competitive. This is not new to racing and will probably never end.

An example is this last winter Wissota talked about allowing the Bert transmission to be used on the Midwest Modifieds(also known as B mods, this is suppose to be the lower cost class) The thought was rather than making guys use powerglides, which are getting hard to find, cost a decent amount to get race ready, rebuilts aren't cheap and the case breaks pretty easy making it so you'd better'd have a backup on hand at all times. To me it only made sense to make the Bert legal as it isn't that expensive to buy, not hard to get and they are pretty much bulletproof and they are fairly simple so the rebuild isn't very expensive. The power to the wheels difference between the 2 isn't that much, the Bert maybe ends up putting a little more power threw. This would have also made it easier for someone new to get into the class because there would be less overhead to get started and less in parts and maintanence in the long run. Seems fairly common sense, but nope, they got all kinds of kick back, mainly because alot of current racers weren't for it cause they already had their powerglides and didn't want to have to get something different, even though they were told that the powerglide would still also be legal and they could use there current one's up and then go to the Bert but they still wanted nothing to do with it.

I just see it as, in theory theres always alot of common sense things that could be done to make a class cheaper, but at the end of the day the racers themselves are their own worst enemies and the ones to not want changes.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

Also, I think your light in the $50 or $55 grand area on the motors the Outlaws are buying, I've heard more recently they are getting up over $75grand now. Not sure if its right or not, just what I heard somewhere

http://gph.is/XMLGff

yea, and the freshen is closer to $15k

Your right,if you want to make money give your car away and run like hell the other way,you will be way ahead money wise.If anybody tells you they make money racing sprints they are full of crap! I'ts like spending $50. to win a $5. stuffed animal at the carnival,you really didn't win,your in the hole.Just be thankfull there are some owners and sponsors that spend the money so we can all enjoy it.

LOL, that's funny. There will always be guys who will spend whatever it takes.

Kelly, thans for bringing some "facts" to this discussion. It puts things in much better perspective!

 
I LEARNED ESP FROM MY MOM

"PUT YOUR SWEATER ON: DON'T YOU THINK I KNOW WHEN 
YOU'RE COLD?"

First off I "never said anything about MAKING money.

If you've ever paid a tire bill or bought the third wing in a month, salvaged what you can of another bent rim or went to the trailer and laid out for another couple shocks, then maybe you MIGHT know anything about the money end.

Sure the money saving classes have always gone high tech. And I mean always gone high tech. Money saving classes like the mods you know. All those frickin rules and there are still fast guys and also rans. I NEVER said there wouldn't be. How many mods show up for the Boone thing?? Hell there are always 30-50 mods in 2 different classes at a track up the road. I give a shit about mods, I am talking about making a 410 engine cost less to start with and way less to maintain in the long run.

Thank you for correcting me on the cost of Outlaw caliber engines. I did in the initial post mention that I was being conservative.

2.5" fuel injection

14:1 compression

7900-8000RPM MAX.

Steel crank and rods, stainless valves, stainless retainers...............come on, common sense. Do away with the exotic, maybe generate some imagination.

The builders, what about the builders.....a friend was to a popular Ohio builder a week or so back. He said he's building one tenth the new 410 Outlaw engines he was just a few years ago. One thenth!!! Oh yea the economy, well you know what ....the economy is money, so maybe trying to save even a few bucks somewhere might help. DON'T YOU THINK???

I guess I should explain myself. I have done this stuiff for a long time. I LOVE 410 RACING....PERIOD. I firmly believe if even the Outlaws would adopt some different rules in the engine department that I would still go to see them (as most would), they would still put on a spectacular show, Tony Stewart racing would still be fast, Kasey Kahn racing would still be fast, The Motter team and all the regulars would still be fast, they race 100 frickin times a year, seems like a hundred with the experiance they bring to their shows anyhow. It would be so cool if I could work with someone that might stand a chance to race with them with lets say...... an engine built in their garage. Wouldn't that be cool?

Warren Johnson says Pro stock engines are $100,000 each, hell intake valves are $800 each (latest Hot Rod magazine). Does it really need to get to that to put on a show that will bring people to their feet??? WHAT THE HELL IS IT ALL ABOUT ANYHOW???

That's the point I am trying to get across.

Never had a Red Bull, for what ever that has to do with any of this.

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

Wow, I guess I apologize for even commenting and trying to have a conversation on the subject you started, I was simply trying to throw in my thoughts on the subject because what your talking about seems to be an ongoing conversation in all types of racing. I thought I qualified that I really don't disagree with your theory, but don't think it would fly in practice and gave examples. I'm not sure if you are typing angrily at us, but your new post certainly does come off like you are.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

Never hit stationary objects!

I must straighten this out. Hey Speedkills, I am typing in an excited fashion, anxious fashion, I have seen classses of racing dissappear, I have seen racing at places like Sun Prairie Wisconsin (midgets, albeit historically one of the most competitive venues in the country) dwindle to near nothing. I see the car counts and I have paid the affore mentioned bills at one time or another. I will not blast you, I never meant to. I have been sympathetic to your comments, and am understanding of their intent. I am not mad as much as sad, or concerned. I see 410 racing as the premier dirt racing, "THE" premier form or racing. A full evening of entertainment for the fans, INTENSE wheel to wheel racing, enough horsepower to raise the front wheels and yet manuever the banks at Eldora at 140MPH (probably no gear for wheelies there, but you get the point). It would be great for someone like me, a middle class, uneducated, (I like to believe) hard working, so and so, could actually almost dream hard enough to put a 410 team together. A team that could be competitive somewhere and yet, if it moved me, drag the car to Rossburg and make a few laps on the worlds fastest dirt half mile. That's what I am trying to say. Its easy to put spare parts together, all the spare parts. Even me, as explained above,

have built everything from, wings and birdcages to axles and rear end parts. I have no dyno, no budget for $800 valves. And of any of the weekly expenses, it's hard to fathom spending $1000 a night, off the top, above and beyond all other expenses, just to start the engine. Especially when that certainly would not have to be the case.

That's all I am trying to say.

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

Thanks for responding and answering my question. Like I said, I see where your coming from and don't disagree with your thoughts either.

http://gph.is/XMLGff

Who goes racing to save money?

I agree.If 410's are too expensive for you to race there are 360's,358's,305's and on down to motorcycle motors.I wish they would quit slowing the 410's down,they already gave them crappy wings and tires,if they keep jackin with them 360's will outrun them!

Hey dirty beer and glad brad; it's pretty easy to figure you have bought nothing more than an occasional admission ticket and probably plenty of beer. I am sure your patronage is appreciated.

I'm not going into some rhetorical rant.

Either you're hooked up with big money, or you stay home, huh.

I will bet there are way way more crew members, and owners and anyone writing the checks and paying the bills, without some cash cow, understanding exactly what I am saying here.

Sorry, 360s and mods and all the rest will never fill the bill like the stroke of a good running alcohol burning four hundred and ten cubic inch engine.

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

You figured out nothing smartass,I have raced sprint cars,but I didn't expect to run with Steve Kinser on my budget,and as a racer and a fan of the sport I didn't want the rules changed so that I could keep up with some turd of a 410 for an engine.410's are the badasses of the sport and I for one would like to keep it that way.The 410 class is the elite class of sprint cars,don't expect to nickel and dime a motor together and keep up.