Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Knoxvegas,

I'll address some of your points and ask you where the $$ is going to come from for these?

Live TV, Knoxville had to "PAY" to have Live TV once TNN went away (and from a fiscal perspective, it's a stupid decision to "PAY" to televise your event if it affects the gate crowd (which Live TV did)). NASCAR has a contract with ESPN/SPEED/ABC/FOX and gets PAID by them for TV rights (but guess what, their contract is almost up and they EXPECT the next one to be for FAR LESS $$$ than the one that is set to expire. If it was as easy as it looks, IndyCar and NHRA wouldn't be struggling with TV either (which they both do).

B mains for weekly shows (sure, I remember those too when I was kid). Back in those days the feature paid $3000 to win (which would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $7500 in todays $$). Things change, I remember the Outlaw shows ROUTINELY had a car count well over 40 at EVERY track they visited in those days, now that kind of car count is few and far between. When it costs $75000 to put a car and engine together, guys aren't going to run places where the car count is so big that a small problem means they go home with no $$. Look at Danny Smith in OH, he runs at tracks that pay $1000-1500 to win, car count and COMPETITION is far less than if he runs an All-Star Show for $4000 to win. But, even if he has a bad night, he is getting start $$ because the car count is maybe 20. Bad night at an All-Star show 50 miles away and he gets $50 tow $$ maybe. The teams and drivers and making BUSINESS DECISIONS when they decide when and where to race. If Knoxville didn't give show up points for the Outlaw Races, I'd say maybe 5 regulars would show for those because it's a BAD BUSINESS DECISION to drive all the way to Knoxville and not make the feature.

Iowa Speedway hasn't "filled" the stands except for (2) events this year (both Nationwide Races), and attendance was down noticably at both of those as well. It's not all "roses" up there either as far as fan count goes. Tickets to the main grandstand for this weekends race are still available, I wouldn't call that a sell out by any means. Perception and reality are different.

What weekly tracks are you seeing 3000 people at besides Knoxville? I can guarantee that those promotors would be salivating at the thought of 1500. (I attended a "special" at Stuart a couple weeks ago, was told by the lady sitting next to me that it was the biggest crowd of the year. CAPACITY is less than 1000, and there were just as many empty seats as filled ones. Oskaloosa has a CAPACITY of ~3000, I'd say they might fill 1 out of every 4 seats on a regular basis. DesMoines, maybe 300 people in the stands. Marshalltown gets a good crowd, but again, their seating CAPACITY is not that large. Knoxville's FRONTSTRETCH holds 17,289, Suites in the Hall of Fame hold 400, Suites on the Frontstretch hold ~ 600. With ZERO people in the stands, there can still be 1000 People in attendance. Next time you go to a race in Knoxville, count the # of people in just the section you are sitting in, even the bad crowds are more people than you think.

I will agree that more needs to be done to incorporate New "YOUNG" people into the sport. The App for Droid and iphone is a step in the right direction on that front. They need to expand that to allow people to scan a QR code as they come in to get access to LIVE video streaming and otherLIVE content to keep their attention.

I personally think that a "fan appreciation night" or $1 admission night once or twice a year would be beneficial as well (it works GREAT for the I-Cubs, Barnstormers, Energy, and the Drake Bulldogs). It's hard to justify losing $$$ one or two weekends a year, but in the long-run they make it back in concessions and by enticing those that had NEVER attended to come on $1 night and put on a good enough show that they come back again (even if it's only once per year that they come back).

to me one name comes to mindor actually 2) loori and terry mccarl

he can work the crowd and and lori is just lori, they would make dang good promotors. ya some people don't like t-mac but if he won the nationals thewhole joint would be tore down. in my mind they would be the best thing that could happen to knoxville. young blood with a passion for the sport like no other, local people that knows what it takes to put butts in the seats. you dont need some big name promotor come in to do the job when you have these two people that could handle it and do darn good

It'd be hard to put butts in the seats if you run off the competitors....

IMO Terry has the wrong attitude to be a promotor (sure, he puts on a good event ONE TIME a year, but that's way different than doing it multiple times a year) and unless he, his sons, and his cousins all quit racing there would be complaints about favortism from both the pit area and the grandstands

Just curious who are the cousins of tmac who race?

It'd be hard to put butts in the seats if you run off the competitors....

IMO Terry has the wrong attitude to be a promotor (sure, he puts on a good event ONE TIME a year, but that's way different than doing it multiple times a year) and unless he, his sons, and his cousins all quit racing there would be complaints about favortism from both the pit area and the grandstands

It'd be hard to put butts in the seats if you run off the competitors....

IMO Terry has the wrong attitude to be a promotor (sure, he puts on a good event ONE TIME a year, but that's way different than doing it multiple times a year) and unless he, his sons, and his cousins all quit racing there would be complaints about favortism from both the pit area and the grandstands

no favorites with clark flagging

I hate to say this, but the days of big crowds for weekly races are over, things have changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 20 years and here are just a few examples.

When I was a kid (25 years ago) you had the rec league sports and school sports, Baseball and Softball during the summer (weeknights only), Football, Cross Country and Volleyball during the fall, Basketball and Wresting during the winter, and Track in the Spring.

Fast forward to today and you have all those PLUS the following: Rec League Soccer (weekdays and weekends), Club Soccer (weekends), Club Softball (weekdays and weekends), Club Baseball (weekdays and weekends), Club Volleyball (weekends), Club Basketball (weekends), Pitchers and Catchers start working out in JANUARY for baseball and softball (and that's the 6th graders). Seasons last longer (I saw the local (I believe it was U12) softball team practicing 2 nights ago and they had a tournament Saturday. Their season isn't over yet and other sports are already into the 3rd or 4th week (fourth week of High School Football in Iowa is tonight). Plus their are other "new" things that didn't even exist when I was a kid. I can probably count on 1 hand the # of 7th graders that do not own a Cell Phone or Smart Phone, and they ALL have a Laptop Computer since our local schools have a 1 to 1 Laptop program through Apple. 25 years ago we had 4 TV channels, not everyone had a Nintendo and a night at the races was a way to keep your kids from driving you NUTS because they were "bored".

Plus, parents are busier today than ever. I'd say 90% of the local families in town have both parents working full-time (and maybe even a part time job thrown in) just to make ends meet becuase it costs $50 or more to put gas in the car to drive back and forth to work (if you only work 10-15 miles from home) and that doesn't leave a lot of discretionary income for entertainment like the races, movies, etc..

When you consider ALL of the factors going on in today's world compared to 25 years ago, it's AMAZING that any racetrack gets the crowds it does. Change is something that most people have a really hard time with (and the older you get the harder change is for you to accept or adapt to). Racing (not just Sprint Car Racing), is going through a MAJOR change right now, the old guard is set in their ways (and I don't mean the Fairboard @ Knoxville, I mean promotors that have been in this business their entire lives) and they don't realize that THEY need to change the way they do business as the days of opening the gates and people coming are OVER.

I hear of tracks closing or promotors getting out of racing or FANS complaining about too many divisions every week. There is only ONE way to change that, it's to attract more peope to the races which means that promotors have to spend more $$ on advertising and lower admission prices (or both) and cut their already slim profit margins to nothing. Most are not willing to do so and instead close up shop. Where I work they preach about how when times are tough are your best opportunity to GAIN market share by investing in your business and advertising. When things get better and people have more discretionary income, your name has been out there and they now can afford to come (but if your name isn't out there they don't even know you exist).

Leadership and promotors of Sprint Car Racing can only go so far. I forsee the day when NASCAR, NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL are all pay-per-view entities on TV (becauase it costs too much to produce live TV. NASCAR and the NFL is starting to see declines in ACTUAL attendance becuase the fans get a better experience when watching on TV. Sprint Car racing is the EXACT OPPOSITE, TV doesn't do it justice, Live TV, Tape Delay TV, Pay-Per-View do not enhance the fan experience, it actally makes the racing LESS exciting to watch. TV is not answer to what ills sprint car racing, getting butts in the seats is.

I was a 4 sport junior high and varsity high school athlete, I couldn't make every show but, I still showed up most the time, paid for a ticket, and could name all the drivers. Are their many like me? probably not. I wish there was more dedicated young fans.

Austin McCarl RACED while being a high school athlete. So its not impossible, we'd just have to get the fans. Knoxville needs to get in good with local little leagues and rec centers.. wheres kids get oppurtunities to get free tickets..ect

Have you ever thought of the weekly schedule being too long? There could be many benefits from a shorter schedule one being making the job easier for the GM/promoter.

Its all about the GM/marketing/promoting to me... you said Iowa Speedway doesn't get the sell out crowds. But they have the multimillion dollar market... they don't necessarily need the national, big names.. but regionals like.. Pizza Ranch, Iowa Ethanol, Casey's, to put in big money... and money = everything... remember that track is less than 10 years old and have been built from completely ground up.

Its sad to think that Goodyear probably pays much less to title the nationals than Hy-Vee pays to be a presenting sponser of an Iowa Speedway race. The TV exposure for their sponsers alone will make profit for the entire weekend if (when) they get a Sprint Cup race. There's money in racing.. it just believe it takes the right marketing and promoting by someone fit to do the job.

Im not arguring with you.. I know times are tough.. I just believe its possible. Car counts/attendance won't rise unless kids get interested in the sport. I feel like no ones trying.

pre-race/post race concerts? Iowa Speedway pays little to get a semi-popular artist to come... and it brings new fans that would normally never pay for a ticket to the races...

The Iowa Barnstormers have pre-game tailgate parties? These type of ideas become the Casey's General Store Concert Stage or the Casey's PreRace Tailgate... simple marketing ideas.. I find it hard to believe Candi's Flowers Night is the best they could do. Its time they start to reach out and change with the times.

sorry for the ranting and going off topic. my childhood is at that racetrack and i still want the experience to be just as good when i get to take my own kids someday. and it drives me insane to see Hooters Pro Cup Races in Newton getting more attendance than the yearly WoO shows at Knoxville. (the WoO is the best in sprint car racing).. Sprintcar racing is where its at. DO THE RIGHT THING FAIRBOARD, LET SOMEONE ELSE CONTROL THE REINS.

I agree, Austin McCarl raced while being while playing Varstity sports, however his FAMILY was heavily involved in Sprint Car Racing before he was even born. Wanting to attend or be involved or not, he was attending (if he had to be dragged to the track).

Weekly schedule too long? If anything the problem is that it's too short (it doesn't start until the weather is getting nice and ends before it gets cold). Shortening the season just makes the raceway even more of an afterthought for many.

Yes, Iowa Speedway has many marketing partners, but I know one of those partners that told me FACE TO FACE that if they ever get a Sprint Cup Race up there, it's written in their contract that they have to write out another check or step away from the sponsorship. So maybe it's not the amount of $$ everyone thinks it is currently. As far as HyVee, Pizza Ranch, Casey's go, I agree that they'd be good partners for Knoxville Raceway as well (Casey's already is), but it's not as easy as calling them to get in front of them. You have to have your LOCAL partners championing you and telling their corporate offices how important and beneficial this is to the company. For HyVee, they are still expanding and I'm sure their demographics are to expand Nationwide if they can at some point (same goes for Casey's and Pizza Ranch). The reach of NASCAR and INDYCAR gets their name in front of POTENTIAL customers for when they expand to new markets. Casey's is very midwestern and does not appear to have any intentions of expanding outside of their current business model (mostly small towns), so Knoxville AND Newton fit into thier plans and the fact that Knoxville doesn't reach coast to coast and resonate with all people obviiously isn't a huge concern of theirs (and the FACT that Don Lamberti has been involved in Sprint Car Racing longer than most of us on this board have been alive sure doesn't hurt either). But it's the same 3000-3500 people in the stands every week (outside of the National Events), there is ZERO bargaining power to ask for more $$$ currently.

Pre/Post Race concerts - I think you'd be AMAZED at how much those semi-popular artist get paid (starting out at $15000 for the no-names). Gotta sell a lot of tickets to people just interested in the band to make up that cost (and Newton does it so not everyone is leaving or arriving at the track all at the same time, (remember their clusterpluck at their first ever event??).

As far as Candi's Flowers Night goes, are you suggesting that they DROP a VERY LOYAL sponsor so they can Chase someone that might be there for a year or two and then leave if their business takes a downturn? All the while you run off someone that supports the Raceway, the local community, (is a board member of the KRCO), and attends regularly. That makes tons of sense...

I'm not saying they shouldn't be pursueing new sponsors daily, I'm just saying it's not as easy as people think it is. If it was, it wouldn't have taken the WoO YEARS and YEARS to find a replacment for Pennzoil (ironically they again got a sponsor that was sponsoring a car on the tour originally, let's hope history doesn't repeat itself and we see Schatz losing his sponsor just like Haud did).

I hate to say this, but the days of big crowds for weekly races are over, things have changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 20 years and here are just a few examples.

When I was a kid (25 years ago) you had the rec league sports and school sports, Baseball and Softball during the summer (weeknights only), Football, Cross Country and Volleyball during the fall, Basketball and Wresting during the winter, and Track in the Spring.

Fast forward to today and you have all those PLUS the following: Rec League Soccer (weekdays and weekends), Club Soccer (weekends), Club Softball (weekdays and weekends), Club Baseball (weekdays and weekends), Club Volleyball (weekends), Club Basketball (weekends), Pitchers and Catchers start working out in JANUARY for baseball and softball (and that's the 6th graders). Seasons last longer (I saw the local (I believe it was U12) softball team practicing 2 nights ago and they had a tournament Saturday. Their season isn't over yet and other sports are already into the 3rd or 4th week (fourth week of High School Football in Iowa is tonight). Plus their are other "new" things that didn't even exist when I was a kid. I can probably count on 1 hand the # of 7th graders that do not own a Cell Phone or Smart Phone, and they ALL have a Laptop Computer since our local schools have a 1 to 1 Laptop program through Apple. 25 years ago we had 4 TV channels, not everyone had a Nintendo and a night at the races was a way to keep your kids from driving you NUTS because they were "bored".

Plus, parents are busier today than ever. I'd say 90% of the local families in town have both parents working full-time (and maybe even a part time job thrown in) just to make ends meet becuase it costs $50 or more to put gas in the car to drive back and forth to work (if you only work 10-15 miles from home) and that doesn't leave a lot of discretionary income for entertainment like the races, movies, etc..

When you consider ALL of the factors going on in today's world compared to 25 years ago, it's AMAZING that any racetrack gets the crowds it does. Change is something that most people have a really hard time with (and the older you get the harder change is for you to accept or adapt to). Racing (not just Sprint Car Racing), is going through a MAJOR change right now, the old guard is set in their ways (and I don't mean the Fairboard @ Knoxville, I mean promotors that have been in this business their entire lives) and they don't realize that THEY need to change the way they do business as the days of opening the gates and people coming are OVER.

I hear of tracks closing or promotors getting out of racing or FANS complaining about too many divisions every week. There is only ONE way to change that, it's to attract more peope to the races which means that promotors have to spend more $$ on advertising and lower admission prices (or both) and cut their already slim profit margins to nothing. Most are not willing to do so and instead close up shop. Where I work they preach about how when times are tough are your best opportunity to GAIN market share by investing in your business and advertising. When things get better and people have more discretionary income, your name has been out there and they now can afford to come (but if your name isn't out there they don't even know you exist).

Leadership and promotors of Sprint Car Racing can only go so far. I forsee the day when NASCAR, NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL are all pay-per-view entities on TV (becauase it costs too much to produce live TV. NASCAR and the NFL is starting to see declines in ACTUAL attendance becuase the fans get a better experience when watching on TV. Sprint Car racing is the EXACT OPPOSITE, TV doesn't do it justice, Live TV, Tape Delay TV, Pay-Per-View do not enhance the fan experience, it actally makes the racing LESS exciting to watch. TV is not answer to what ills sprint car racing, getting butts in the seats is.

agree. T-Mac is ALMOST perfect for the job.. but his love-hate relationship kills the chance of it. I see people not wanting to cooperate with him simply because he is who he is. But Terry probably takes it as an insult that his name is being brought for the job.. because his racing career is far from over.

Brian Stickel will eventually be named GM, probably sooner than later. I'm sure he didn't make TK's life any easier than he had to this year.

Stickel thinks he's heir apparent to the position. If he were to be named GM, Knoxville might as well close it's doors.

Stickel is the perfect answer, though, to the fairboard's way of thinking. Not many people have a personality that fits so perfectly with the personalities, or lack thereof, on the fairboard.

Knoxville's in trouble, folks. And it's been coming to this for a long time.

Oh, and PLEASE no more mention of McCarl as a promoter there. Nobody trusts him and it wouldn't be long before the lawsuits and accusations started flying on both sides.

Very well said. Not to pile on the fairboard at Knoxville, but some of them (NOT ALL of them) think that the only form of racing at Knoxville should be sprint cars and nothing else. The LM Nationals have grown every year, and they had a decent crowd for the AMA night last week. That said each different form of racing brings in a different fan base. While I'm not a fan of modified racing, I have friends who are involved with modifieds and they constantly ask me how are the sprint car races. I say just come for a show. It's really hard to decribe a sprint car race at Knoxville. How do you get these people to show up? Give them an incentive to come! That's the challenge I would give to the fairboard and whoever they hire as the new GM. I totally agree this day in age you just can't open the gates and HOPE fans will show up.