Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

OK: I have been reading through many of these posts and I see arguments for and against the 305s and there is one thing I am trying to wrap my brain around. Now I realize that the usual suspects will simply start in with their normal BS so them, I am challenging them to actually justify their reasoning.

Here is my question: There is no question that the 305 series (RaceSaver, etc) is now here to stay so instead of fighting their existance, why would we not look at them for what they actualy are: A way to enable those who want to race sprint cars a ay to actually do it as opposed to building a 4-fendered car? Furthermore: With the advent of the 305s, there seems to be a more natural progression through the ranks (Mini or mico sprints to 305s to 360s to 410s) making a better driver with more experience and confidence working their way through the ranks.

SO now: For all the know it alls, here is your chance to justify your thoughts and go on record as to why you are dead set against them. For everyone else, I would just like to get your thoughts on the issue?

Paul

Just my $.02 worth.

Member of this message board since 1997

I guess I don't get the common comment about the 305's are out of hand. Go price a new killer 305 then go price a killer 360, you can buy a roller and spares and be on the track for what you saved on the cost from the 305 compared to the 360.

Exactly. I have nothing against 305 sprint cars other than a severely underpowered sprint car is just not very exciting to watch. They still have the 5X5 topwing so they are locked down beyond belief.. Make them wingless and maybe they'd be worth watching.

A

I do not understand the people that say price of Rasaver engines will go up and up with all kinds of cheating. The engines are sealed, only a certified person can seal them. Heads are box stock no nothing allowed. If you follow the simple rules it would be hard to do alot of cheating. They throw the price of $20,000 for a new engine, but that is with all brand new parts. The Knoxville motors mostly are not $20,000. the $20,000 motors were 2 wesmar engines I think. If you have a 305 motor you do not need anything but a set of racesaver heads.

I appreciate those who have actually answered with some thought. Granted it is new but here is what I am basiclly hearing from thses and other posts on not only Hoseheads but other forums as well:

1: "305s are not as fast or exciting": I think this boils down to a relativity issue. If the cars racing are generally on the same level, I honestly think that the excitement will be just as high as any other division where the cars are evenly matched. It's not like a 305 is going to compete against a 410 or even a 360. This is where I think some problems existed and still do here. Because the 360s were let to run rampant, they began competeing head to head with the 410s. While this may be ok on smaller tracks, there are tracks where they really do more harm then good. Because of the difference in speed, the closing rates are much faster and they could potentially become a problem. With the 305s, you are not going to get that simply because it IS a whole different mindset as well.

2: "The cost will get out of hand and it wil become just like the 360s": To anyone who dismisses this, then I ask what local 305 club are you looking at? Simply because it seems to me that, with a couple exceptions, that most 305 groups across the country have already or are adopting the same set of rules which include the RaceSaver heads that are sealed. The actuall problem is not with the cars or even teams trying to get over on rules. It is the enforcement of those rules and if a uniform set of rules exist nationwide, then I ask: Why would that NOT be a good thing for our sport? Afterall, the more a team can run the better and by having something like this, a guy or gal actually relocating would not have to sell everything anymore. Not to mention the fact that affordability means increased car counts as well because teams are seeing the economics behind the cars themselves as compared to other types of racing. Money is the driving force. Always has and always will be. As long as the spirit behind the rules is maintained and embraced, then I think that it can remain competative and cost effective.

Again, I welcome more comments. Yes I am also doing a little research for a column on the subject as well but more importantly, I want to see where the attitude and pulse was of the whole thing. Whether you are for them or against them, the 305s are here and as long as they are ushered in correctly, I think that they can exist in a positive sphere within racing allowing an affordable entry level for those who have always dreamed of getting behind the wheel of a sprint car.

Keep the comments coming!

Paul

Just my $.02 worth.

How bout a good old fashioned claim rule like they used to do in the classes that were supposed to be budget classes. Any racer in the top 15 can claim the motor of anyone in the top 3 for (set your price) $5000? If they refuse, they forfeit all prize money and points. Always did the trick back in the day at the local race tracks. Don't here much about it anymore. Let them police themselves.

Keep em coming guys. This is good stuff! egas: You're right! The claim rule would definately allow the racers to police themselves and that is usually a very effective way to take care of things.

As far as the prices go mikmracing: I have been told by many teams that the price of a competative RaceSaver legal motor ranges between $5g and $7500 but you bring up a good point. No one has ever said if that was new or what. I think it would be a good thing to hear the actual cost of a new bullet from an actual builder. It would give some credibility to the claim at least.

Lets keep it going

Paul

Just my $.02 worth.

I don't think a claim rule would help.

IMCA still has the claim/exchange rules for thier classes. I haven't seen (or heard of) a motor getting claimed in YEARS (and it's still like a $500 claim rule), because EVERYONE is spending more than that and don't want theirs claimed either. The ones I've heard of that did get claimed, all refused, paid the $1000 to IMCA, gave up thier points for the season and gave up their prize $$ for that night. So, obviously a claim rule will solve nothing as far as someone spending $$ on a "spec" motor or trying to control costs.

IMCA even knows it doesn't work, that's why they are experimenting with Crate Motors (that cost even more than the motors guys are running now).

I have no problem with the 305's except that we keep diluting the competition / car counts. 30 years ago we just had a Sprint Car Class, then we went to 360's and 410's and car counts in 410's dipped. Now we have 305's, 360's and 410's and car counts aren't increasing (we still get the same 65 or so @ Knoxville, now they're spread out over 3 classes instead of 2 classes like they used to be).

Same thing is happening with Late Models, Modifieds, Stocks, etc. The amount of racers really hasn't changed, there's just a lot more classes of cars for them to choose from to spend their $$ so no class has enough cars to run a B-main at most weekly tracks anymore (PA is an exception).

Theres a huge differance in a engine that is brand new top to bottom. filter to oil pan. You can have a complete long block built with brand new stuff from a builder $3700. But then would most would put a used injection and fuel pump and mag. Which is prolly around a $2000 more. http://www.rogersperformance.com/index.html

Now if you think of all brand new injection and all bypass and pump the whole thing could be upward to $5000. just for fuel system.

extra cost:

some people make the block a four bolt.

a good melling oil that gains hp is like $400

tri y headers range around $600 i think

48lb crank I believe is a little more expensive.

Racesaver is only as good as the people sealing the motors. all the 360 drivers i know who have raced the 305 do not like them because the do not pull well center off.

As for everyone who said there slow. Really how about them four bangers now there slow. On a locked down tacky track the racing does sucks. I think. With the pay out being so low its suppose to make people think twice about buying brand new tires every week and spending alot of money on the engines. basically your racing for a trophy

heres my opinion: it will cost ALOT to switch from a modern 305 to a racesaver, also how is it racing if every1 has the same exact motor?? with the 305s we have now the more $$ u have in it the faster it goes.... so basically if u wanna win u need to commit.... the top dogs are throwin money in there motors weekly because they wanna be in victory lane, so just leave them the same. this seperates the ones wanting/trying to win and the wanna bees.

always remember the quote that should be in every engine builders shop "speed costs, so how fast do u wanna go??"

Lets go k-ville locals.... show um how its done
Dobs,Stewart,Brownie,Heskin

I mentioned the claim rule because I did witness it work a couple of times. This was 12-15 years ago though. It was very effective at our local track (no longer a race track-now a cornfield) in the sportsman/prostock class. There were a couple of guys getting in there with big power and money behind them. Finally a couple of guys had enough of it, and claimed them. They next year (or two?), they were in late models. (I don't know if the claim rule was the reason, but they did move up)

Just a thought, don't know if it still works or not. Would like to hear from anyone out there that knows of an effective claim rule still being used/executed.

Member of this message board since 1997