Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I believe it has started!!

The 2012 tentative schedule has added an IMCA race plus a 410 race and then takes away 2 305 races from last year's schedule.

My question is why they cut the future 360 and 410 racers.
305s have been bring in the younger crowed that everyone keeps talking about trying to find ways to get them to the track.

It is a known fact that some fair board members and track officials do not care for the 305s. They have been very up front about that. For that reason they do not tech nor care about the motor rules because they would just have to enforce them. They just feel their time is much more valuable them to have to spend any time with the 305s.

305s spend the same money to get thru the gate as 360s and 401s. So why would the fair board give up that money when all you hear is how much money they loss each night.

Makes no sense to me

What?

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A healthy diet of dirt in my nachos and beer.

??

Maybe I'm looking at the schedule wrong, but I see 10 dates for 305's on the 2012 schedule compared to 12 dates on the 2011 schedule.

However, a WoO date has been added in April where only 360's are the support class (takes 1 of the dates away) and no 305's during Southern IA Sprintweek (I seem to remember 305 drivers complaining about 410, non-wing and 360 drivers looking for 305 rides for that week so they could compete for the Mr. Sprint Car title).

You never know, they may end up adding 305's to the Prelude to the Nationals Night, but from what I see, 1 date was lost due to WoO, and the other due to your own class of cars complaining about guys dropping down (and pit pass prices) during Sprintweek.

I personally like watching the 305's, but if you think that 305's are padding the grandstands you are NUTS. Do the kids like watching Jamie Ball and Carson McCarl go at it? Sure do, but I don't see anyone getting up and leaving following the 305 feature (if they did, that's an indication that they came to see THOSE CARS and drivers).

Let's say the run the 410 feature first, then the 360's, then the 305's one night, do you think the grandstand will have 1/2 the people stay for the 305 feature? I highly doubt it.

I remember teh days when the grandstand would empty out during the "limited sprint" heats, b and feature and everyone would go to the concession stand, those days are long gone as the fans have evolved and now care about the quality of racing on the track, if it's exciting, they're interested.

vande77

I agree ..... if they ran the 410 feature first ..and the 305's last ... wouldn't be 10% of the crowd left in the stands IMHO.

If Toby wants to run IMCA classes as stand alone races ...so be it ... I just hope he doesn't dilute the 410-360 shows with that those type cars.

If he can get 6,000 folks to non sprint car races ...good for him (just won't be me in the stands) and that is perfectly fine with me .... I am glad that I don't buy a season pass as the 'pick 10' deal works fine for me on the weekly sprint car show.

IMCA type classes 'show' much better on a short track IMHO ....too slow and cumbersome at Knoxville. (that truck race was beyond boring this last summer .... remember??)

Good Luck Toby ..... you're gonna need it ..... I suspicion.

S.H.S.

Lets say that there is only 10% following the 305s using your number 6,000 people, that would be an addition of 600 people.

Tickets at $15 = $9,000

Food (1 hot dog 3.25 1 soda 2.25) = $3,300

Using simple math 305s would add approx. $12,000 this is not counting the pits.

Why would you want to leave that kind of money on the table if you are losing money.

I don't think you understood my point, I'm saying 10% of the people there would actually stay.

I haven't noticed any more (or less) fans in the stands when the 305's are racing.

Another tidbit, if you think that there are 6000 people in attendance for a weekly race, you are NUTS, it's closer to 3000-3500 (including the kids).

So, I'll use your simple math equation as well and say of those 3500, 75% are adults and 25% are students/Kids

So, let's say 5% of those attending came for the 305's (which is probably more than what actually would if it was a stand-alone 305 event, as only about 5% come for the 360's as evidenced by stand alone 360 races over the years), that means 175 people came, of which 44 are kids/students. IF everyone paid full price to get in (which I doubt, becuase you could purchase discount tickets a variety of ways in 2011), you are looking at 131 adults @ $15 = $1965 and 44 kids/students @ $6 (I split the difference in ticket prices) = $264 = a grand total of $2229

As far as concessions goes, you are under the assumption that EVERY person is buying a hot dog and soda, I can assure you that is not the case as the 30 or so people I sit near every week, maybe 3 or 4 actually buy something (and usually only a drink), but for arguments sake, I'll say 25% of those attendees do purchase a hot dog and a drink = $242 at the concession stand.

It sounds so easy for all the keyboard promoters out there, but it's simple business. The concession stand SPENDS more $$ in fixed and variable costs when attendance is down than the amount it takes in. Let's say they only have 4 employees in the concession stand @ $8 per hour, on an average race night, they begin their night @ 5:00 PM and end it @ 11:00 PM (about 45 minutes after the races get over for clean-up), your cost for just LABOR = $192 for (4) PEOPLE, not counting the cost of food, electricity, water, etc..

If 305's added teh kind of #'s that you think they do, believe me, they'd be racing every night (or actually they might get replaced by IMCA Modifieds because they (1) bring more cars and people to the pits, (2) purse would be less $$, and (3) would bring a "new" fan to the track on Saturday Nights that normally does not attend (they go watch IMCA Modifieds race elsewhere), as SPRINT CAR FANS are already @ Knoxville, you basically only gain family of the drivers, crew and car owners.

I'll state it again though, I ENJOY WATCHING THE 305's, I just won't be one of the people in the stands if the reversed the running order of the features. I love watching the 410's and the 360's actually put on better racing, but it took 15 years of them running weekly to make me attend a stand-alone 360 race, and I only do that during the 360 Nationals.

I seriously doubt anything other than a LM 'Nats' type race will put ANYWHERE near 6,000 butts in the seats and we ALL know how 'popular' ANY kind of open wheel racing is with that crowd.

I guess Toby should do a stand alone 305 race and see what kind of grandstand count he gets @ $15.00 a ticket.

Before you get your undies all wadded up ... I HAVE NOTHING against 305's .. I am only reporting the following news... The weekly crowd at Knoxville is NOT buying a ticket to see that class.

For free ???? I am all for the 305's (included in the price of my weekly ticket with 360's and 410's) ...stand alone ?? I wouldn't pay $5.00

I will say if ...if .... I lived in an area with no sprint cars and a travelling show of 305's came in ... I would probably pay $15.00 to see that class.

Take a look at the ARCA crowds hours before a NAPCAR race at the same track ... lucky to get 10% of the NAPCAR attendees and that is because many tracks INCLUDE the ARCA ticket in their NAPCAR package ...many are just given away for free (by ticket buyers that could care less about ARCA racing) and that is 95% crowd you see in their stands.

305's are a necessary feeder class to help the weekly show other 2 classes car counts not shrink ...but Knoxville is subsidizing the 305's to make the class viable.

And that is both smart and fine with me.

S.H.S.

You are very good with numbers, estimates and explanations.

Mucho kudos ....you might have a second career as a race promoter down the road.

S.H.S.

NO WAY I'd be a promoter. I like to keep and spend my $$ without having to worry about weather wiping out my savings!

I think MOST on this board work somewhere like a manufacturer, restaurant, or office setting and already know what I have typed (because they deal with it as part of their daily work) without having to read it over and over and over. I think there are SOME that need it spelled out for them as they are so passionate that they are blind to reality (ex: 13 year old girls that thinks Justin Bieber is a good singer or those in the 80's that thought the guys from Milli Vanilli could actually sing english even though they could barely speak it---CALLING OUT ALL THE GRAMMY VOTERS).

I have to ask about the 2nd to last paragraph where you said "305's would get replaced my IMCA mods because they bring more cars and people, and the purse would be less".

How many cars do the mods bring to Knoxville? (I have never been to a mod race at Knoxville)

How much does the IMCA class get paid? If it is less than the 305 class, that is just sad.......

Don't take this as a "keyboard challenge", I am wanting to know the answers.

The 305 are a club that races at Knoxville. If so why don>nt they tech own cars? Do not get me wrong , I like the 305 cars They are running real hard st Knoxville. What could be better than seeing 410-360-and 305 all run in one night

Majority of IMCA tracks run for $200-250 to win (some of them even less), and $50 to start. Knoxville would probably pull in anywhere from 16-20 cars (about the same as the 305's), but has the potential to pull in up to 40 every week (as they run at the following on tracks on Friday, Saturday or Sunday every week (all within 3 hours of Knoxville): Marshalltown, DesMoines, Burlington, Eldon, Stuart, Corning, Webster City, Boone. But the Mods almost to a car bring at least 5 people with them to the pits, and all of their family in the stands (another 3 people for every person with a car in the pits). Just the cars through the pit gate pays their purse (even for their "big shows" like the Harris Clash and Boone Super Nationals). unfortunately, the 305 Sprints just don't do that, they might bring 2 or 3 to the pits, but most don't bring any to the stands (some of the cars are a family operation and the 2 or 3 in the pits are their family).

I'll say it again, I ENJOY THE 305's, but if it we're talking from a pure business standpoint, they wouldn't be what we watch every Saturday as a 2nd Support Class...

linbob, the 305's that run K'ville for the most part are not a "club". Some of the 305's are members of the MidWest 305 sprint cars, but K'ville's rules are not in line with the MW305 rules. The MW305 members are trying to keep the cost of racing down. Knoxville does not tech the 305 motors at their track. If Knoxville would get together with the MW305 & Burlington on the 305 engine rules, I believe that the MW305 would be happy to do the tech on motors every night. JMO

I was using simple numbers knowing that the infrastructure was already in place, it seems the time frame for the program with or without the 305s is the same.

By using your numbers, $2,229 from gate plus $242 from concessions equal $2,671 per night by multiplying that by 15 nights that would be $37,000 plus by year end.

305s are a support class no one has asked anyone to pay for just a 305 program. Most of us can remember when the 360s where considered just a support class.

I am very favorable of having more 305 races do to the fact that it is a big part of the future of sprint car racing especially if we can get all the tracks on the same rules.

As a final question if it turned any kind of profit at the end of the night why not have them there.

Weekly mods at Knoxville?,alot of us sprint car fans would about as soon have our testes sqeezed in a vise rather than sit thru mods at Knoxville.That's nuts!

As I stated, if it was being looked at from a pure BUSINESS standpoint that's what they would do. Fortunately, they seem to be looking at it from both a spectator standpoint and from the standpoint of "where does the next generation of drivers and car owners going to come from?

Remember, that $2229 is REVENUE only, that's not profit.

I personally have no idea what the purse is for the 305"s (outside of the $400 or $450 it is to win), but the purse alone probably eats up all of the REVENUE, yet all the expenses remain.

I remember when the 360's were considered "just a support class", do you remember how many people sat in the stands and watched them race? I do, NO ONE, everyone headed for the concession stand, bathroom, or home when they were on the track.

"The winner ain't the one with the fastest car, it's 
the one who refuses to lose."

When did u dream that B.S. up those 4 cars have NEVER been engine checked...its people like you that make it imposible for the real racers to get a fair shake