|
|
|
|
|
Topic: Engine class questions
|
Email this topic to a friend |
Subscribe to this Topic
| Report this Topic to Moderator
|
|
Page 1 of 2 of 28 replies
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
02:22:43 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/14/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
7628
|
|
|
|
Engine class questions from a relative newcomer: Difference between 410s & 360s: bore, stroke, or both? Plus, at Knoxville someone was trying to tell me that WoO has been letting teams get away with running 430s. Any truth? How often do they inspect?
360s & 358s: there was a thread on this before.... whats the diff besides a mere 2 cubes? Heads? Wings? The thread discussed combining the 2 classes, makes me wonder how they came about... which came first 358 or 360s? Seems it would make sense to combine them... or is the idea to keep outsiders away from each class?-
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
02:47:33 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/25/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
558
|
|
|
|
The 430's at Knoxville have to use the older heads,not the latest and greatest heads all the top 410's use,they are also restricted in other ways,smaller tube headers I seem to remember,they are down on power with the restictions and I don't believe anyone is bothering with this motor.As far as 360's vs.358's,an ASCS 360 uses a spec alum brodix head.I believe a 358 uses a steel gm.production head I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
02:59:36 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/14/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
7628
|
|
|
|
Thanks, DB
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
04:33:13 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
02/27/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
4443
|
|
|
|
WoO 410: aluminum block and heads, no compression rule, 4.165" maximum bore size, 3" maximum injection size, ~900 hp.
ASCS 360: cast iron block, brodix ASCS stamped port spec aluminum heads, no compression rule, 2 3/16" maximum injection size, ~700 hp
PA 358: cast iron block, cast iron heads of stock configuration, 3.5" maximum stroke, flat top pistons only, zero deck height, maximum compression ratio of 10.80:1, ~700 hp
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
06:31:09 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/04/2007
|
|
Posts:
|
769
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on October 10 2011 at 04:33:13 PM
WoO 410: aluminum block and heads, no compression rule, 4.165" maximum bore size, 3" maximum injection size, ~900 hp.
ASCS 360: cast iron block, brodix ASCS stamped port spec aluminum heads, no compression rule, 2 3/16" maximum injection size, ~700 hp
PA 358: cast iron block, cast iron heads of stock configuration, 3.5" maximum stroke, flat top pistons only, zero deck height, maximum compression ratio of 10.80:1, ~700 hp
|
What, if any difference is there between ASCS 360s and URC 360s? Anytime it's an open 358/360 race, the 360s are still the quick ticket, even though I think 358s are the way to go. That compression rule allows you to run a lot of races between rebuilds vs. all the others, from what I've heard.
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
07:33:08 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
02/27/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
4443
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: LatshPA on October 10 2011 at 06:31:09 PM
What, if any difference is there between ASCS 360s and URC 360s? Anytime it's an open 358/360 race, the 360s are still the quick ticket, even though I think 358s are the way to go. That compression rule allows you to run a lot of races between rebuilds vs. all the others, from what I've heard.
|
URC is legal to run with ASCS if they sleeve their injection down to 2 3/16". URC rule is 2 7/16".
358 or 360 being the way to go is a moot point. 360 is the way it is going. Won't be long for Selinsgrove.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 10, 2011 at
09:03:54 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 10, 2011 at
10:38:35 PM by Hannity
Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on October 10 2011 at 02:22:43 PM
Engine class questions from a relative newcomer: Difference between 410s & 360s: bore, stroke, or both? Plus, at Knoxville someone was trying to tell me that WoO has been letting teams get away with running 430s. Any truth? How often do they inspect?
360s & 358s: there was a thread on this before.... whats the diff besides a mere 2 cubes? Heads? Wings? The thread discussed combining the 2 classes, makes me wonder how they came about... which came first 358 or 360s? Seems it would make sense to combine them... or is the idea to keep outsiders away from each class?-
|
The 360's and 410's are doing well, in spite of each other. I don't think combining them will add any value...
Check out Justin Zoch's column in the October edition of Flat Out.
While not all things are doom and gloom, per Justin, engine prices continue to sky rocket. With that said, I am convinced that modifications to the existing engine platforms are a waste of time. It's time to retire the SBC...
It's time to embrace some newer technologies that will maintain current levels of performance but will also greatly reduce costs.
Squeezing a few "horses" out of our current engine configurations is extremely expensive.
I'm not going to take credit for these ideas, there are several sprint car "leaders" who have already suggested alternative power plants. I am simply suggesting that, "I agree," it's time to move forward.
|
|
|
|
|
October 11, 2011 at
08:22:31 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/17/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
2254
|
|
|
|
The real key is in your third sentence Hannity. Reducing engine costs is the key. The problem is that racing people aren't very good at doing this and it'll never happen. Beyond that, I feel sorry for anyone that thinks that newer technologies will make things cheaper. It just doesn't work that way.
With regard to retiring the SBC, there are a lot of fans who will be turned off if they do that. Why? Because of the sound! We have some good mini sprint racing in this area, but the majority of the fans don't like them. Why? Because they are V8 purists and don't like anything that sounds like a chain saw. You wouldn't think that would be a big deal, but it is.
|
|
|
|
|
October 11, 2011 at
12:39:46 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Dryslick Willie on October 11 2011 at 08:22:31 AM
The real key is in your third sentence Hannity. Reducing engine costs is the key. The problem is that racing people aren't very good at doing this and it'll never happen. Beyond that, I feel sorry for anyone that thinks that newer technologies will make things cheaper. It just doesn't work that way.
With regard to retiring the SBC, there are a lot of fans who will be turned off if they do that. Why? Because of the sound! We have some good mini sprint racing in this area, but the majority of the fans don't like them. Why? Because they are V8 purists and don't like anything that sounds like a chain saw. You wouldn't think that would be a big deal, but it is.
|
I agree; the hill is steep!
I wasn't suggesting that we abandon Chevy or even "V8's," but I do think there are some newer block configurations that should be considered. For example, the new style block used on the Schatz/Shaver experiment. I'm not a chain saw guy either, although I have experienced both.
It's time to stop prolonging the inevitable. We need to maintain sprint car basics, things that make a sprint car a sprint car (like push truck startups), but we also need to embrace some technologies that will maintain a high level of performance without breaking the bank. Technologies that will reduce cost, reduce consumption, reduce re-builds, etc., but most importantly, technologies that will help keep sprint car racing viable for future generations.
Don't feel sorry for me "Dryslick;" I am convinced that newer technologies can improve cost management.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 11, 2011 at
12:51:30 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
02/12/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
680
|
|
|
|
I was going to remind everyone that when we're complaining about the price of engines skyrocketing, we're forgetting about the price of fuel going up as well as the price of a dually being $50-60,000...........then I realized............how many teams are using duallys now. DOH!
Crossbar at the pit entrance and 1 car/1 engine per night.
The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.
|
|
|
|
|
October 11, 2011 at
01:11:26 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: BLUTEAM on October 11 2011 at 12:51:30 PM
I was going to remind everyone that when we're complaining about the price of engines skyrocketing, we're forgetting about the price of fuel going up as well as the price of a dually being $50-60,000...........then I realized............how many teams are using duallys now. DOH!
Crossbar at the pit entrance and 1 car/1 engine per night.
|
I hate rules and regulation, but I almost agree "BlueTeam"...
There are a lot of teams who are making trailer, ATV, and toterhome payments, who struggle to buy tires. It's stupid!
Cost containment is important, but some teams need to exercise some financial restraint, especially when it comes to "wants" verses "needs".
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
11:34:05 AM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
12/17/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
2254
|
|
|
|
Actually you do make a good point about the rebuilds. If newer technologies will improve durability and make them go longer between rebuilds, then that would help immensely. I originally thought you were talking about a total reconfiguration.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
01:13:42 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
10/07/2011
|
|
Posts:
|
18
|
|
|
|
So I shouldn't feel bad pulling in with my open trailer and a spare set of wheels? 
EngiNERD
Performance
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
01:39:44 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
This message was edited on
October 12, 2011 at
04:37:26 PM by Hannity
Reply to:
Posted By: wileboar on October 12 2011 at 01:13:42 PM
So I shouldn't feel bad pulling in with my open trailer and a spare set of wheels?
|
Nope!
I would rather have a strong motor instead of a flashy "toter!"
Can you believe that some teams are known for their "rig," rather than their "gig?" How pathetic is that...
I'm not known for either...lol, but seriously we all need to apply some common sense. Racing is already a bad idea financially, but when you add up all the stuff that doesn't add value, it's even more fiscally irresponsible.
For those teams who have been blessed with sufficient sponsorship dollars, more power to them. For the other 99%, it just means that we need to prioritize!
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
03:13:37 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
03/12/2011
|
|
Posts:
|
1656
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: Dryslick Willie on October 12 2011 at 11:34:05 AM
Actually you do make a good point about the rebuilds. If newer technologies will improve durability and make them go longer between rebuilds, then that would help immensely. I originally thought you were talking about a total reconfiguration.
|
newer tech will increase cost alot. The tech that allows NASCAR to run mech. lifters is alot' . Aerospacenology is very costly. You can rent a nascar engine for about $50,000 a race, USAC tried to put starters on midgets a few years ago. It cost about $3,ooo per car to run slower and not get a dime more in purse. Push trucks are part of the sow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
04:19:51 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/16/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
276
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: BLUTEAM on October 11 2011 at 12:51:30 PM
I was going to remind everyone that when we're complaining about the price of engines skyrocketing, we're forgetting about the price of fuel going up as well as the price of a dually being $50-60,000...........then I realized............how many teams are using duallys now. DOH!
Crossbar at the pit entrance and 1 car/1 engine per night.
|
Are you saying we shouldn't be able to change motors if we break 1 in hot laps after driving 300+ miles or bring down a. spare car if 1 gets junked in a heat race ,,that makes no sence at all if you can afford a spare motor of course you should put it in ,what's the option don't race and wait till tomorrow
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
04:29:07 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 12 2011 at 03:13:37 PM
newer tech will increase cost alot. The tech that allows NASCAR to run mech. lifters is alot' . Aerospacenology is very costly. You can rent a nascar engine for about $50,000 a race, USAC tried to put starters on midgets a few years ago. It cost about $3,ooo per car to run slower and not get a dime more in purse. Push trucks are part of the sow.
|
"Aerospacenology?" $50,000 engine rent? NASCAR tech is not "newer" tech, they're still using push rods and carburetors. Supposedly they are going to introduce throttle body injection in 2012...
We're talking about sprint cars here Bob...and if you go back and actually comprehend the previous threads, no one suggested adding starters. In fact, I was suggesting that we retain the current sprint car platform, including push trucks! What planet are you on?
Back on planet earth...lets compare "constant flow" injection to EFI injection. Constant Flow (like a Hilborn/Kinsler) means that the nozzle is spraying fuel all the time, even when the cylinder is on the exhaust stroke, thus the name constant flow. Constant flow generates a lot of waste. Unburned fuel washes down the cylinder (adding to rebuild frequency) and then gets pushed out through the exhaust. EFI injection eliminates both issues and may even boost performance.
Fuel delivery is just one example of "newer technologies"...
Have you priced a new Engler lately LinBob? We need to be a little more progressive...newer technologies do not always mean added cost. In fact, they may actually reduce some costs; that's the target.
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
04:35:27 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
09/18/2009
|
|
Posts:
|
536
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: L.O.G on October 12 2011 at 04:19:51 PM
Are you saying we shouldn't be able to change motors if we break 1 in hot laps after driving 300+ miles or bring down a. spare car if 1 gets junked in a heat race ,,that makes no sence at all if you can afford a spare motor of course you should put it in ,what's the option don't race and wait till tomorrow
|
I think Blueteam is simply suggesting that we apply some common sense at the grassroots level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
04:48:23 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
02/12/2005
|
|
Posts:
|
680
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: L.O.G on October 12 2011 at 04:19:51 PM
Are you saying we shouldn't be able to change motors if we break 1 in hot laps after driving 300+ miles or bring down a. spare car if 1 gets junked in a heat race ,,that makes no sence at all if you can afford a spare motor of course you should put it in ,what's the option don't race and wait till tomorrow
|
Yep, thats exactly what I'm saying.
Break a rocker or spring or something simple, go ahead and fix it. Knock a rod out or break a valve and better luck (choice) next time.
Drive like an ass in the heat race and junk your race car, better luck (choice) next time. Someone else drives like an ass and junks your race car in a heat race..........have a "discussion" so it doesn't happen again, and better luck next time.
Yep, thats what I'm saying. Having a trailer loaded with enough equipment to run 3 race teams at one event makes a driver and car owner do things that drive up the cost of racing at that ONE event.
Yep, thats what I'm saying. Looks cool though.
The greatest knowledge is to know that you know nothing
at all.
|
|
|
|
|
October 12, 2011 at
07:04:48 PM
|
|
|
Joined:
|
11/16/2010
|
|
Posts:
|
276
|
|
|
Reply to:
Posted By: BLUTEAM on October 12 2011 at 04:48:23 PM
Yep, thats exactly what I'm saying.
Break a rocker or spring or something simple, go ahead and fix it. Knock a rod out or break a valve and better luck (choice) next time.
Drive like an ass in the heat race and junk your race car, better luck (choice) next time. Someone else drives like an ass and junks your race car in a heat race..........have a "discussion" so it doesn't happen again, and better luck next time.
Yep, thats what I'm saying. Having a trailer loaded with enough equipment to run 3 race teams at one event makes a driver and car owner do things that drive up the cost of racing at that ONE event.
Yep, thats what I'm saying. Looks cool though.
|
Having a spare car and motor makes you automatically drive like an "ass' and you drove up the cost of racing so people like you can no longer afford to race ,,,that's the dumbest post I've seen today
|
|
|
