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Topic: How to make the Midwest the new Posse land Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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gohotfoot
June 08, 2011 at 12:52:36 PM
Joined: 08/26/2009
Posts: 414
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In Posse land they have some of the best drivers in the world, that is partly to the fact they have multiple tracks out there that all pay well (i'm assuming) and race different nights.

how does the Midwest (Knoxville, Jackson, Husets) become a place that drivers want to spend there summer?




Dirthawk
MyWebsite
June 08, 2011 at 01:56:27 PM
Joined: 04/11/2010
Posts: 1315
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Pennsylvnia provides a job for drivers such as Walker, Pittman and Henderson because it has 2 full 6 and 8 day Speedweeks. In addition it has 6 WoO visits paying up to 50,000 to win as well as 4 All-Star invasions.

The new ASCoC East circuit allows full-time drivers from the area to run on summer weekdays throughout the Eastern coast. In addition, they are many, many raised purse shows in the area, the Grove alone has 16 raised purse shows.

I think the Midwest would have to have more tracks within a reasonable traveling and higher paying purses to be "more like Posse land". Knoxville purse pays extremely well throughout the field, but that's not going to entice top-notch drivers that will be competing for the win every weekend, like Pittman, Walker, etc. to come and run there on a regular basis.

Speaking on an unlimited budgeted mind here, but it wouldn't hurt to start the season earlier and end later. Knoxville's season opener is April 30th, by that time Lincoln has already run 10 shows, not to mention Knoxville season ends 2 months earlier. Obviously, running weekly at Knoxville can have benefits come August and a good run at Nationals can turn a $hitty season, into a successful one.

The Midwest has a ton of talent, I just think the quanity of races needs to be increased before outside drivers begin to race there weekly.

 



bt Express
June 08, 2011 at 02:41:19 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 237
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This message was edited on June 08, 2011 at 03:33:41 PM by bt Express
Reply to:
Posted By: Dirthawk on June 08 2011 at 01:56:27 PM

Pennsylvnia provides a job for drivers such as Walker, Pittman and Henderson because it has 2 full 6 and 8 day Speedweeks. In addition it has 6 WoO visits paying up to 50,000 to win as well as 4 All-Star invasions.

The new ASCoC East circuit allows full-time drivers from the area to run on summer weekdays throughout the Eastern coast. In addition, they are many, many raised purse shows in the area, the Grove alone has 16 raised purse shows.

I think the Midwest would have to have more tracks within a reasonable traveling and higher paying purses to be "more like Posse land". Knoxville purse pays extremely well throughout the field, but that's not going to entice top-notch drivers that will be competing for the win every weekend, like Pittman, Walker, etc. to come and run there on a regular basis.

Speaking on an unlimited budgeted mind here, but it wouldn't hurt to start the season earlier and end later. Knoxville's season opener is April 30th, by that time Lincoln has already run 10 shows, not to mention Knoxville season ends 2 months earlier. Obviously, running weekly at Knoxville can have benefits come August and a good run at Nationals can turn a $hitty season, into a successful one.

The Midwest has a ton of talent, I just think the quanity of races needs to be increased before outside drivers begin to race there weekly.

 



Hawk, a very well thought out response, I think you hit the nail on the head. In Central Pa a driver can run 80 to 90 races a year within a reasonable driving distance, and if the stars align, can win as much as the 5th or 6th WoO driver without the added expense of all the travel. I could be wrong, but I think I remember Fred Rahmer winning over $300,000( even without winning the Williams Grove National Open) one season. This year, the All Star Eastern series, has really added to opportunity to win some serious $$$$. There is an All Star race tonight at Fonda, NY. A fair amount of Posse drivers are expected to compete.




Rogue-9
June 08, 2011 at 03:19:39 PM
Joined: 02/11/2007
Posts: 1163
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Williams Grove and Lincoln are about 22 miles apart, Williams Grove and Port Royal are about 58 miles apart, and Port Royal and Lincoln about 70 miles apart(but run on the same night), Williams Grove and Selinsgrove(358's only) are about 60 miles apart. Lincoln and Selinsgrove are about 82 miles apart and Port Royal and Selinsgrove are about 35 miles apart. There's also Trail-Way Speedway(358's only) about 10 miles from Lincoln.

In contrast, Knoxville and Husets are 330 miles apart, Knoxville and Jackson (run the same night) are about 250 miles apart, and Husets and Jackson(360's only) are about 84 miles apart. Big Difference.



sprinter25
June 08, 2011 at 03:28:57 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1973
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This message was edited on June 08, 2011 at 03:31:41 PM by sprinter25

Indiana has a ton of tracks - Fridays, a team can choose to race at either Bloomington or Gas City; Saturday, it's Putnamville(LPS), Lawrenceburg. or Paragon; Sunday. it's Kokomo. So most weeks in Indiana a team can choose to run three times a week . In addition, there are the KISS(King of Indiana Sprint Series) and the MSCS(Midwest Sprint Car Series). I beleive that for the KISS races the other Indiana sprint car tracks on the KISS schedule go dark, or do not run sprint cars, so teams can either stay home or head to the KISS races.

Haubstadt also run some sprint car races, as well as the Indiana Sprint Week, which is 7 or 8 races over a two week period in July and is sanctioned by USAC. They run at both regular sprint car tracks, as well as non-traditional sprint car tracks such as Brownsburg(maybe it's Brownstown).

The big difference is that the purses in Indiana are not like those in PA. Most Indiana tracks pay between $1500 and $2000 to win, and $150 to $200 to start. But USAC shows usually pay $3000 to win and $200 to start - it's always listed on teir entry blank. But if you don't crash, you can run most of the year on the same motor, and you don't need as many RR tires as a winged car. So you don't necessarily spend as much as a winger.

Can a driver make a living in Indiana? Maybe.. but the stars would have to align with consisten podium finishes over the summer....but I can think of one driver who pays the bills from racing in Indiana....


Chuck.....

Rogue-9
June 08, 2011 at 04:04:15 PM
Joined: 02/11/2007
Posts: 1163
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Reply to:
Posted By: sprinter25 on June 08 2011 at 03:28:57 PM

Indiana has a ton of tracks - Fridays, a team can choose to race at either Bloomington or Gas City; Saturday, it's Putnamville(LPS), Lawrenceburg. or Paragon; Sunday. it's Kokomo. So most weeks in Indiana a team can choose to run three times a week . In addition, there are the KISS(King of Indiana Sprint Series) and the MSCS(Midwest Sprint Car Series). I beleive that for the KISS races the other Indiana sprint car tracks on the KISS schedule go dark, or do not run sprint cars, so teams can either stay home or head to the KISS races.

Haubstadt also run some sprint car races, as well as the Indiana Sprint Week, which is 7 or 8 races over a two week period in July and is sanctioned by USAC. They run at both regular sprint car tracks, as well as non-traditional sprint car tracks such as Brownsburg(maybe it's Brownstown).

The big difference is that the purses in Indiana are not like those in PA. Most Indiana tracks pay between $1500 and $2000 to win, and $150 to $200 to start. But USAC shows usually pay $3000 to win and $200 to start - it's always listed on teir entry blank. But if you don't crash, you can run most of the year on the same motor, and you don't need as many RR tires as a winged car. So you don't necessarily spend as much as a winger.

Can a driver make a living in Indiana? Maybe.. but the stars would have to align with consisten podium finishes over the summer....but I can think of one driver who pays the bills from racing in Indiana....



Brownstown, Brownsburg is a northwestern suburb of Indy, but Lucas Oil Raceway(IRP) is in nearby Cleremont.




nancespeedequipment1n
June 08, 2011 at 04:05:21 PM
Joined: 09/21/2008
Posts: 705
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This message was edited on June 08, 2011 at 04:05:58 PM by nancespeedequipment1n

It would be nice to have more races in the midwest that paid 3 to 4 thousand to win on a friday or saturday nite.



azteca
June 08, 2011 at 04:18:28 PM
Joined: 09/29/2006
Posts: 645
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Reply to:
Posted By: Rogue-9 on June 08 2011 at 03:19:39 PM

Williams Grove and Lincoln are about 22 miles apart, Williams Grove and Port Royal are about 58 miles apart, and Port Royal and Lincoln about 70 miles apart(but run on the same night), Williams Grove and Selinsgrove(358's only) are about 60 miles apart. Lincoln and Selinsgrove are about 82 miles apart and Port Royal and Selinsgrove are about 35 miles apart. There's also Trail-Way Speedway(358's only) about 10 miles from Lincoln.

In contrast, Knoxville and Husets are 330 miles apart, Knoxville and Jackson (run the same night) are about 250 miles apart, and Husets and Jackson(360's only) are about 84 miles apart. Big Difference.



Correct on all points ...add to that PA. has WAY  WAY more population and thriving businesses to help sponsor teams.

The economy of central Iowa would NOT support a circuit of ....let's imagine the Iowa State Fair track on Friday night, Knoxville on Saturday and say Boone on Sunday's.

Not to be Mr. Doom and Gloom ....but I can't help but notice the crowd ...or perhaps more correctly ..... the lack of crowd at Knoxville every night this year.

The other two I mentioned (or pick any track you wish with in 150 miles of Knoxville) would have EVEN less on the nights in front or behind Saturday night trying to run 410's weekly.

To quote Bill Clinton in 1991  ...'It's the economy ...stupid'   (NOTE: I am NOT calling anyone on here stupid ....just that is the world we live in right now.)


S.H.S.

Paintboss
MyWebsite
June 08, 2011 at 05:07:10 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 2098
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Before last year I normally went to Knoxville just about every weekend, Last year I was at about 50%, This year I have still yet to go! Other committments, Work and questionable weather being the reasons. I would be more than happy to support 2 sprintcar tracks most every week if they were 20-30 mile travel distance but 240 miles round trip travel to Knoxville every weekend is very taxing on an average family guy! I feel bad that I am not supporting the track as much as I use to, I feel worse that I am not getting to see as much Sprint Car racing as I use to but it is what it is. I envy the people that live in Eastern Pa that they have so many options within a close geographic. I do think Winged Sprints are catching on a little more here in Eastern Iowa (Late Models have been King forever in these parts! Yuck LOL) One hopeful is Burlinton Iowa, They are SSprint Car fans and seem to be weening a little more Sprint Car action into the schedule and it is a very nice track. Still it is 50 miles away but better than 120 miles! We have a decent 1/2 mile at West Liberty (15 miles Yaaa) but they only run sprints once a year at Fair time. I really wish they would convert but again Late Models are DEEPLY rooted at that track and I don't see it happening anytime soon. I will say though that when the Sprints come to the Fair Race (360's) the fans rally pack in to see them.


ColtanW
June 08, 2011 at 07:07:53 PM
Joined: 07/03/2010
Posts: 857
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I've always wondered how something like FAST would fair in Iowa. Osky on Friday nights and Knoxville on Saturday nights. Both really fast half-miles that are only 30 miles away from each other. It would make for an interesting points race for sure.


Ask Frank

Oakland Sprint Fan
June 08, 2011 at 07:35:24 PM
Joined: 04/14/2007
Posts: 1573
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Central PA is the #1 region for 410 racing... but Western Ohio is now #2. The FAST series is really taking off with large fields, 2 races nearly every weekend and some decent paying shows. Similar to PA, you have Ohio Spedweeks and several WoO and All Star high purse shows as well. Plus, you have big shows at nearby Eldora and Limaland.

King of the West, Kville/Husetts, NOSA (ND), IRA (Wisconsin) and MOSA (IL & MO) are also doing well. It's nice to see 410's alive and well as a touring series. Maybe that iswhat the future holds... 360's are for the budget weekly racer at their home track and 410's are step up for the region or national touring series and bigger purses.


  

diagtool
June 08, 2011 at 08:36:53 PM
Joined: 05/24/2011
Posts: 2
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Reply to:
Posted By: gohotfoot on June 08 2011 at 12:52:36 PM

In Posse land they have some of the best drivers in the world, that is partly to the fact they have multiple tracks out there that all pay well (i'm assuming) and race different nights.

how does the Midwest (Knoxville, Jackson, Husets) become a place that drivers want to spend there summer?



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singlefile
June 08, 2011 at 10:38:27 PM
Joined: 04/24/2005
Posts: 1341
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This message was edited on June 08, 2011 at 10:39:33 PM by singlefile
Reply to:
Posted By: azteca on June 08 2011 at 04:18:28 PM

Correct on all points ...add to that PA. has WAY  WAY more population and thriving businesses to help sponsor teams.

The economy of central Iowa would NOT support a circuit of ....let's imagine the Iowa State Fair track on Friday night, Knoxville on Saturday and say Boone on Sunday's.

Not to be Mr. Doom and Gloom ....but I can't help but notice the crowd ...or perhaps more correctly ..... the lack of crowd at Knoxville every night this year.

The other two I mentioned (or pick any track you wish with in 150 miles of Knoxville) would have EVEN less on the nights in front or behind Saturday night trying to run 410's weekly.

To quote Bill Clinton in 1991  ...'It's the economy ...stupid'   (NOTE: I am NOT calling anyone on here stupid ....just that is the world we live in right now.)



Really? The weekly crowd at Knoxville this year has been poor, even with the return of Lasoski and McCarl as regulars? I have seen posts on here in recent years about the weekly crowd at Knoxville being down, but I thought that would bring back fans to the weekly show.

This is a good thread, Lots of interesting thoughts, but Dirthawk is correct with what he posted. There are a ton of extra money races in central PA each year and a team or driver setting up base in Harrisburg can run 80-90 times a year and never have to travel over 100 miles.



dsc1600
June 08, 2011 at 10:38:58 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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Reply to:
Posted By: Rogue-9 on June 08 2011 at 03:19:39 PM

Williams Grove and Lincoln are about 22 miles apart, Williams Grove and Port Royal are about 58 miles apart, and Port Royal and Lincoln about 70 miles apart(but run on the same night), Williams Grove and Selinsgrove(358's only) are about 60 miles apart. Lincoln and Selinsgrove are about 82 miles apart and Port Royal and Selinsgrove are about 35 miles apart. There's also Trail-Way Speedway(358's only) about 10 miles from Lincoln.

In contrast, Knoxville and Husets are 330 miles apart, Knoxville and Jackson (run the same night) are about 250 miles apart, and Husets and Jackson(360's only) are about 84 miles apart. Big Difference.



This response hits the nail on the head. If you're good in the midwest, you have to travel absurd distances to race. There's no community/pride that develops, and no scene that attracts fans and sponsors/car owners. That's probably why alot of these guys (over the years, Dude, Dollaansky, Schatz, McCarl etc...) just end up on the tour, because the weekly travel ain't that much worse, and you can make a ton more money. While in PA, if you're good, you can race 80 times in a 100 mile region and still have a chance to leave the porch (and get beat, sorry couldn't resist, haha) and make some extra dough.



Jamie Klootwyk
June 09, 2011 at 01:30:23 AM
Joined: 09/14/2006
Posts: 487
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This message was edited on June 09, 2011 at 01:38:51 AM by Jamie Klootwyk

I agree the answer to the initial quesiton is the distance between quality tracks... with quality weekly shows or big events... with quality purses... and quality crowds. Fewer tracks with fewer races with fewer fans and more miles means less money which means fewer car owners employing fewer big name drivers. It's just that simple. That being said the Midwest has plenty of talent, tracks, and fans to produce a similar product to support a similar model.

I don't know whats done well in PA, but can comment about whats done poorly in the midwest and that's marketing and business operations by a mile. I disagree that population is a significant factor. Central IA has more than enough blue collar race fans and a big enough economy to support a business with a quality product such as the sport of sprint car racing. And a place like IA has much less entertainment competition than PA. With the size of Des Moines metro and decent sized cities and towns around Knoxville and Osky to pull from (Pella, Ottumwa, Newton, Indianola, Chariton, Albia, Washington, Grinnell) a multi-track series or model would be much more successful with better marketing around the sport. Heck, the population of Eastern IA from Ia City, Cedar Rapids, and Quad Cities with Mt. Pleasant and other communities could easily support a weekly show at I-34 or other local tracks.

Family packs and cheap or free kids tickets aren't going to do any good if the kids, teenagers, and paying adults don't know about the sport, understand the sport, haven't experienced the excitement, and can't "get involved" beyond just sitting in the stands for 3 hours on a Friday or Saturday night.

We all know sprint car racing is a great product, but most of us can also say we've been fans since we were kids because our parents were fans. If not for them we may never have known this great sport. It's kind of like once a fan ... always a fan. Maybe Eastern PA does a better job of creating new fans. I've often wondered...if I wasn't born in Knoxville would I even know what a sprint car was? The answer to the question scares me...seriously; and makes me feel like I won the lottery.

People get on here and knock NASCAR all the time. Most of us agree the on-track product isn't even close. But race fans are willing to pay double, triple, or even ten times more for tickets, and forget discounts for children let alone free admission for 5 and under. But why is it more successful? It's run like a sustainable business, not a red-neck hobby. My apologies to Knoxville, because I do believe it's the best facility in the world and run better than any other I know...but with the exception of one week in August it's marketed like a small town class reunion and run like a hobby; not like the exciting entertainment product and sustainable business it should be.




Rogue-9
June 09, 2011 at 02:43:58 AM
Joined: 02/11/2007
Posts: 1163
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Reply to:
Posted By: Oakland Sprint Fan on June 08 2011 at 07:35:24 PM

Central PA is the #1 region for 410 racing... but Western Ohio is now #2. The FAST series is really taking off with large fields, 2 races nearly every weekend and some decent paying shows. Similar to PA, you have Ohio Spedweeks and several WoO and All Star high purse shows as well. Plus, you have big shows at nearby Eldora and Limaland.

King of the West, Kville/Husetts, NOSA (ND), IRA (Wisconsin) and MOSA (IL & MO) are also doing well. It's nice to see 410's alive and well as a touring series. Maybe that iswhat the future holds... 360's are for the budget weekly racer at their home track and 410's are step up for the region or national touring series and bigger purses.



Central PA is #1 for 410 WINGED racing, Central Indiana is best for 410 racing in general. 5 410 weekly tracks within an hour of Indy, with the possibility of going to 3 every weekend, as opposed to three 410 tracks within that distance from Harrisburg, PA, and only two per weekend.



cubicdollars
June 09, 2011 at 02:51:28 AM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4443
Reply

How to make the Midwest the new Posse land?

Go undefeated against the Outlaws for three years at Knoxville.


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com


azteca
June 09, 2011 at 10:27:38 AM
Joined: 09/29/2006
Posts: 645
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Reply to:
Posted By: singlefile on June 08 2011 at 10:38:27 PM

Really? The weekly crowd at Knoxville this year has been poor, even with the return of Lasoski and McCarl as regulars? I have seen posts on here in recent years about the weekly crowd at Knoxville being down, but I thought that would bring back fans to the weekly show.

This is a good thread, Lots of interesting thoughts, but Dirthawk is correct with what he posted. There are a ton of extra money races in central PA each year and a team or driver setting up base in Harrisburg can run 80-90 times a year and never have to travel over 100 miles.



I agree, you would think the return of those two weekly would have helped the crowds.

My take on the deal is the hard core fans are all that is in the stands and if both of them went Outlaw racing for the rest of the year, you wouldn't see any difference for crowd count.

Quite frankly if you would see the small crowds so far this year, you would begin to think ' how long can this go on before something has to be 'adjusted.'

It is not going to change with a new 'Cappy' or a new fairboard or lowering prices back to $10.00, it is just many ....many ..folks are hurting that attend these types of event.

I drove around Newton last night waiting to meet a friend back for his class reunion and the town looks like Detroit, houses and business buildings falling down, streets in disrepair. The downtown is empty and off the square it looks like a ghetto in many places.

I can remember a Maytag night at Knoxville like 10 years ago and there had to be 1500 people ALONE stand up and cheer when Bokhoven asked 'How many Maytagers do we have here tonight?' The crowd was large that night without the Maytag people.

That loss of Maytag is an example of why crowds are dwindling and I don't see a turn around anytime soon.


S.H.S.


Desflur
June 10, 2011 at 09:49:50 AM
Joined: 10/09/2010
Posts: 428
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: gohotfoot on June 08 2011 at 12:52:36 PM

In Posse land they have some of the best drivers in the world, that is partly to the fact they have multiple tracks out there that all pay well (i'm assuming) and race different nights.

how does the Midwest (Knoxville, Jackson, Husets) become a place that drivers want to spend there summer?



plain and simple, It does not as the midwest doesnt have enough fans that can support that many tracks or nights of racing. I sure wish it could though



FcknLow
MyWebsite
June 10, 2011 at 10:58:14 AM
Joined: 06/10/2011
Posts: 4
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Reply to:
Posted By: Desflur on June 10 2011 at 09:49:50 AM

plain and simple, It does not as the midwest doesnt have enough fans that can support that many tracks or nights of racing. I sure wish it could though



exactly....410s are too popular around here....not much other kinds of racing to compete with....pennsylvania is almost all dirt track all the time...


[b]Beer Hill Gang #71x[/b]



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