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Topic: The Case for Displacement
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April 16, 2011 at
08:34:46 AM
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How about a discussion on the merits of opening up displacement as opposed to the trend to think less motor = less $ maybe more regulation on the car less on the motor, the car would be easier to tech than the inside of a motor so enforcement could be less of a issue. Started this thread because The Devils Bowl can no longer can field a weekly Sprint Car show. The Bowl tried 305's last year and they droned around the track, some blew up, some finished, BUT they all just droned around the track. 305's are capable of putting on good shows on smaller tracks but not at a joint like The Bowl. So lets here what you got ! Yeah Horsepower.
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April 16, 2011 at
09:18:14 AM
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This message was edited on
April 16, 2011 at
09:18:54 AM by Sprinter 79
Reply to:
Posted By: asiseeit on April 16 2011 at 08:34:46 AM
How about a discussion on the merits of opening up displacement as opposed to the trend to think less motor = less $ maybe more regulation on the car less on the motor, the car would be easier to tech than the inside of a motor so enforcement could be less of a issue. Started this thread because The Devils Bowl can no longer can field a weekly Sprint Car show. The Bowl tried 305's last year and they droned around the track, some blew up, some finished, BUT they all just droned around the track. 305's are capable of putting on good shows on smaller tracks but not at a joint like The Bowl. So lets here what you got ! Yeah Horsepower.
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What size track is Devils Bowl? 34 Raceway is 3/8 mile and the 305s scoot around there pretty well and put on a really good show. Maybe you need to change your rules regarding the 305s. Check out the 34 Raceway website and download a rulebook. Maybe there is something wrong out there. Just a thought. I am told, although I have yet to go, that the 305s at Knoxville are pretty fast as well.
Never hit stationary objects!
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April 16, 2011 at
01:51:32 PM
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I was not trying to diss 305's, The Bowl maybe a special case. the discussion is, will limiting cu.in. be the best way to make racing a Sprint cost less to race and still be entertaining and challenging? It's my opinion that the cheapest thing you can buy on these cars is displacement. Sprinter79 how much more would your 305 cost to build if it used the same basic restrictions except it could be say a 406? I know just doing this wouldn't work well with the tires and wings that are being used currently because the current traction levels would cause the engine to hurt itself , but if we were able to manipulate the HP up and the traction levels down, maybe we can get the engine to live, the cost overall may be decreased and the level of talent required to drive one might be increased and more people might want to watch that.
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April 16, 2011 at
03:47:04 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: asiseeit on April 16 2011 at 01:51:32 PM
I was not trying to diss 305's, The Bowl maybe a special case. the discussion is, will limiting cu.in. be the best way to make racing a Sprint cost less to race and still be entertaining and challenging? It's my opinion that the cheapest thing you can buy on these cars is displacement. Sprinter79 how much more would your 305 cost to build if it used the same basic restrictions except it could be say a 406? I know just doing this wouldn't work well with the tires and wings that are being used currently because the current traction levels would cause the engine to hurt itself , but if we were able to manipulate the HP up and the traction levels down, maybe we can get the engine to live, the cost overall may be decreased and the level of talent required to drive one might be increased and more people might want to watch that.
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I know that you are not trying to diss 305s. I hadn't thought that you had. As for more displacement, yes to a degree that would be better. There are far more parts available for a 350 engine over a 305. And at the rate that companies are targeting the 305 engine for performance parts, the cost is escalating. There is already a class that has used your principles. Check out the MSA 360 class that races in Wisconsin. They are making more horsepower and their engines are cheaper than the 305s that race in Burlington. But they spec everything. And that is the only way that you are going to control costs. As long as tracks refuse to go after every engine that is competing, you are going to have problems controlling cost. Just like it is easy to build and race a 410. As long as you do not want to make the same power that an Outlaw engine makes and you are content to race against folks who are willing to spend $50,000 for an engine to race for $1,000. It will be very hard to race cheap engines. Most folks (I'm not included because I am to stupid to quit), will race on the cheap for a while, and when they realize that they can not compete with the cubic dollars, they will quit. Yes, the answer may be larger engines to satisfy the fans, and myself, but this is a slippery slope. Unfortunately in sprint car racing, like many forms of racing, the engine is the most important factor if tracks are unwilling to control tires. And they are also the most expensive part in the car.........You bring up a good point here and I hope that more folks chime in on the subject. I would like to see some of the replies.
Never hit stationary objects!
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April 16, 2011 at
05:44:35 PM
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Devils Bowl is listed as 1/2 mile, and it might be around the outside lane. As far as sprint car racing goes, there are quite a few reasons why car counts have suffered there. Engine displacement is not one of them. I agree that this track would be hard on 305 engines, especially when the track is at it's fastest. They are bringing the 305s in there a few times this year, so we'll see what happens.
With regard to weekly sprint car racing, the Bowl has been dead for years. For the last several years there have only been 8 or 9 cars a week on average. The reasons have more to do with the promoters and the way they've treated their racers than anything else.
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April 16, 2011 at
06:01:14 PM
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Big block parts cost more and no matter the series ,someone is gonna spend a bunch on the best big block they can get and soon everyone that wants to keep up is gonna have to spend the same ,,give it a year and youl have a budget big block class with $60,000 motors
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April 17, 2011 at
10:32:07 AM
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I'm not exactly worried about The Bowl, I'm afraid it may be too late for them.I am not saying go to big blocks, I guess I'm back to the old argument that we have to unhook the cars. My thinking is you can work on the car, ( smaller wings, thinner wings, narrower tires, etc.) but bringing more hp will also help do this in addition to the things. In 1992 when ASCS started , Texas, Oklahoma, & Kansas were running 410 Sprints on a regular basis, I've often wondered how it would've turned out if we just put a set of spec heads on those motors, granted they were allowing aluminium blocks at the time, but I had some top five finishes with a steel block and #8 brodix against aluminium -12 motors, I just think this trend toward smaller = less $ works against the premise of unhooking the cars. If you know any promoters try to get them in on this discussion. Sprint79 is right it is a slippery slope, but we can't keep making up more classes of Sprint Cars it confuses the customer(fans). Something else I looked at was World Products,I know these are'nt Sprint Motors but I thought it might be Apples to Apples...415 cu.in.475 Hp $9672.99 = $20.36 per 1 HP. 454 cu.in. 600 Hp $11,707.99 = $19.51 per 1 HP. Let's keep talking.
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April 17, 2011 at
11:04:36 AM
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Pull the wings off and leave them off.
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April 17, 2011 at
12:00:39 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: nat48han1 on April 17 2011 at 11:04:36 AM
Pull the wings off and leave them off.
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Knew that would be coming sooner or later, don't know exactly how to respond, started my career @ The Bowl running without a wing,I ran the TNT Show they had @ The Bowl last year and came out alright,then I saw the video of Derek Hagar at I-30 the next night, was really thankfully that nothing like this happened to anyone getting in to three at The Bowl. They wouldn't have to park the ambulance on the property they could just park it 1/4 mile down the road.Will this be acceptable on a weekly basis? If they come back (TNT) I'll try to race with them again, but the old memories will be refreshed.Maybe I'm to old, but I don't wish it on the youngsters either.
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April 17, 2011 at
12:20:34 PM
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This message was edited on
April 17, 2011 at
12:23:40 PM by Sprinter 79
Reply to:
Posted By: asiseeit on April 17 2011 at 12:00:39 PM
Knew that would be coming sooner or later, don't know exactly how to respond, started my career @ The Bowl running without a wing,I ran the TNT Show they had @ The Bowl last year and came out alright,then I saw the video of Derek Hagar at I-30 the next night, was really thankfully that nothing like this happened to anyone getting in to three at The Bowl. They wouldn't have to park the ambulance on the property they could just park it 1/4 mile down the road.Will this be acceptable on a weekly basis? If they come back (TNT) I'll try to race with them again, but the old memories will be refreshed.Maybe I'm to old, but I don't wish it on the youngsters either.
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One answer might be to make us all race on tires that are as hard as diamonds. I used to race with the UMARA Sportsman midgets here in IL and we all ran on Mickey Thompson street tires. These things were like a rock. If you set your car up right you could run an entire season and then some on one set. We ran dirt and asphalt 14 to 18 shows a year. And they were spec on all 4 corners. They chose one size for the front, one size for the RR and two different sizes for the LR all with the same durometer. The class actually has grown and horsepower becomes irrelevant at a certain point. It does not help anyone to spend huge $$$$ on power because the tires are only going to hold on for so long. I am not saying that these tires are the tires of choice, that would be ridiculous, but it is a solution that would most certainly work. Find a set of rock hard tires and tell the teams to figure it out. And tech is easy, have the fellow in the push off lane guiding the cars push a durometer into any one tire he chooses prior to push off. If you do not durometer 65 or whatever, you pull out of line. Just a thought.
Jim
Never hit stationary objects!
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April 17, 2011 at
12:47:02 PM
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Two things I believe will help and control it. First would be wingless racing. On big tracks like the bowl maybe not for a weekly show. Second would be the LS engine. They have proved it cost effective and also powerful. A 20,000 dollar race motor as powerful as a 410. Seems like the answers there. We just need to open up to it. Sealing engines also would help. Teching the cars and putting them on a spec right rear. Alot of answers there just need it put into play.
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April 17, 2011 at
04:07:00 PM
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The cars you saw ran at the bowl last year were not the fastest 305's in the area, and those cars are on hard tires, Medium LR and DT3 RR.
As far as the cost of engines, The one I've got right now cost me around 6k to build, the next one I'm planning on spending around 10, mostly for durability at higher RPM. The engine I've got now is competitive, I just don't want to turn many more RPM than I am now, there's a lot of heavy stuff inside my motor so I'm looking at shaving weight in a few areas.
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April 18, 2011 at
05:25:22 AM
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Open up Cid, fuel and tire rules and you will level the playing field and lower costs.
"The Outlaws have people out here that don’t know
anything about racing. I don’t understand how they
come up with some of the calls they do. It makes me
think that they just might be that stupid. It’s
scary." -Steve Kinser
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April 18, 2011 at
07:35:16 AM
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Well one thing that would help is to keep the tire manufacturers/distributors from deciding on the tire. We don't need their point fund money if they pick a tire that requires you to need 5 extra tires per year.
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April 18, 2011 at
11:44:03 AM
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There are a million different formulas that a weekly show could utilize; I think the Bowl has a track record of using a lot of different formulas year in and out. They likely didn't change the major chunk of the book every year... but I can recall seeing a whole bunch of different "sprints" there over the years.
To me the issue in DFW sprints is there hasn't been a Friday and Saturday night track to race at within a short/fairly short drive. Too many different rulebooks.
It looked like things would be ok with Cowtown & the Bowl running ASCS rules... not sure now what they're doing.
The Bowl is on the inside 3/8 or so; it's a short 1/2 if you want to call it that. Texans do a lot of things "big"; Kilgore's old track grew from a 3/8 to a 1/2 purely by the change in ownership lol.
The Bowl would fit nicely in the infield at Knoxville (or any true fairgrounds 1/2 mile I've been to) and wouldn't come close to spiling onto the track in any direction.
305's are run on tracks WAY bigger than the Bowl. I recall announcing a race at Hub City Speedway in Lubbock where winged minisprints from the Midland/Odessa area ran; Hub was at the time a fast 3/8 (bigger than anywhere the minisprints had run).
Those little dudes were FLYING; fast as could be. One by one... lap after lap... trail of smoke and pull off track. Motor go boom.
I thought at the time... how hard is it to gear properly? Watch the tach... adjust. If your redline is X rpm... don't go over it. Pull in if you have to.
Over time I've come to realize that like the minisprints I saw and the 305s that scattered themselves all over the Bowl's glorious gray clay... 1/4 mile tracks can cover up an ill motor and cubic dollars are what makes you fast on a bigger track. A lot of underpowered folk can shine on a 1/5 or 1/4... but running the big track is almost like a dyno test or a stress test for us that have endured that joy. You max out and the flaws stick out like a sore thumb. Not so noticeable if you don't push it... but bad news when you do.
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